Bone agression, help please :(

[mama23+pyrs2]

Sorry I haven't been on to respond to many posts but I haven't been feeling very well at all.

I just let the pups in from outside and had 2 knuckle bones in their cage for them waiting..they are still sharing the same crate, which is soon to change anyway.. I got Yukon in there first, probably a bad idea because he is dominant anyway, he started to guard both bones. I let Yiska in and the moment he saw her coming he started to growl. I shut the door to see if she would be able to get her bone and she didn't dare even try, he kept giving the warning growl while standing over both bones and chewing one. I then opened the door and stuck my hand in to pet him and he growled LOUDLY at me so I grabbed the scruff of his neck to pull him off the bone and he started growling and snapping, I really thought he was gonna attack me, it was scary. He has NEVER EVER so much as even growled at me. When they are out of the crate and have rawhides or whatever I always make a point to touch their faces, mouths and be generally nosey to get them used to that, and so far it's worked great. These are real bones though and I'm shocked at his reaction. What do I do?

I just sat there holding the scruff of his neck because I wasn't sure what to do, take the bone away? I was kinda scared I would get bitten. He just kept growling as I held him. I then took the other bone and gave it to Yiska and he eventually calmed and I started to pet him and he resumed chewing.

Please any instruction to nip this behavior in the bud. I do NOT want a huge grown dog that does this, to me let alone the children.

I get the feeling that Yiska being in there, just made the whole thing worse because he treats her that way around bones, but never us.

[schelmischekitty]

if he doesn't act like this outside his crate, i just wouldn't give him any in his crate. some dogs who get crated can get very confident inside their crates.  if he does it outside the crate, i saw a neat technique on caser milan, where he used a broom, put it next to the bone and then gradually put it over the bone and then between the bone and the dog and then they grabbed it.  all the while using the foot to stabilize the broom so it won't give in.  after a while, it got to where he could just use his foot, put it over the bone and kicked it away, but while his foot was on the bone he'd roll it back and forth to tell the dog HE was in charge.  then, he also set boundaries, only letting the dog have the bone when he said it was ok.  put the bone down, not let the dog have it until HE said "ok, get it."  also, i know the "leave it" command works with our dogs, we tell them leave it with bones etc, and they are trained to walk away from the bone.

[mama23+pyrs2]

I should also say he was wagging the whole time, whether that is nervous behavior or what I am not familiar. Yiska wasn't the slightest bit upset that I touched her or her bone. I just went over to the crate and got up close to him and he started wagging, stopped chewing and sat up to put his face by mine. Me confused.

[schelmischekitty]

he may just be nervous.  (i know this isn't right, and i tell hubby to stop every time but..) i know when hubby "growls" at diesel, diesel will show his teeth, his hair stands on ends, and he puts his head down.  we know he's upset and thinking about biting hubby, but he's still wagging.  with diesel we can tell he's just nervously wagging b/c he's unsure what to do.  you'll have to evaluate his behavior, but i would correct it regardless b/c with our dogs, they're not allowed to show any behavior like that.

[mama23+pyrs2]

Okay. I considered the crate possibility, that being their den and all. I haven't given them those new bones outside the crate to know how he would act. They, especially Yukon does excellent with the 'leave it' command for everything else. I need to start what you do with your dogs then. They have to wait for for treats until I say so, so I'll do the same things with bones.

[schelmischekitty]

here's a short article to explain why we don't let ours growl, ever, even with a wagging tail.  i'll try to find a better one on dog behavior for you.

http://blogs.chron.com/dogbytes/archives/2006/04/dont_be_deceive.html

[mama23+pyrs2]

The other night actually when they were out here, Yukon was chewing a rawhide and Yiska was sleeping. It was late and time to go to bed so instead of telling them it was time for bed, (they will usually go in the crate willingly) hubby just went behind Yukon and grabbed his collar to pull him off the floor..I heard a very low growl then. I turned around and asked hubby if he growled at him, he said I think he did. So I went over to him, he was still holding his bone and I took his collar and asked if he was growling at me..I heard a faint sound, it could have been mouth breathing. I then took the bone out of his mouth, made him go to his crate, sit, and then I gave the bone back. I told hubby to never, ever let him get away with even so much as a quick, quiet growl. If I hadn't been there, he wouldn't have corrected it. Whether or not he thought it was Yiska coming up behind him, I don't know. Hubby was wrong to approach him that way and I let him know that. He doesn't always treat the dogs with respect, he treats them more like dogs, so I had that talk with him.

[mama23+pyrs2]

here's a short article to explain why we don't let ours growl, ever, even with a wagging tail.  i'll try to find a better one on dog behavior for you.

http://blogs.chron.com/dogbytes/archives/2006/04/dont_be_deceive.html

Okay, thank you. Yes, I never want to allow that behavior to go uncorrected even one time, so I was stumped as to what to do, fearing I would do the wrong thing and let him feel dominant over me.

The part of that artice that says: "If the tail is tucked and completely still or moving very rapidly, the dog is uncomfortable with the situation and may bite out of fear."
That's what Yukon was doing, moving very rapidly, very nervous like. It wasn't a friendly wag, no.

[schelmischekitty]

what i would do is try the NILIF (nothing in life is free) with him, and do a TON of obedience.  every time he gets a treat or food, do obedience.  we train our dogs to where they must accept whatever we do to them.  if we want to take their food bowl, get over it, you'll get it back when i give it back.  bones, ok.  if the kids bump into them, don't even bother looking.  "personally" we don't train our dogs in a way that we respect them overly, yes we do respect in that we don't hurt them, or bust their confidence intentionally, etc. BUT they are dogs and they are pets and they must accept that we are the top dogs and they must accept whatever from us.  we don't let our dogs tell us "no" concerning toys, treats, food, etc.  in return we have the most accepting dogs, we can trust that they will never hurt anyone, etc, and they know we won't hurt them in return.  we go by cesar milan's "first they are dogs" idea.

we do have a semi-extreme level of what we expect from our dogs, but with 4 out of 5 being large breed dogs, we have to make sure they are very well behaved.  you may not want to go to the point we do, but i can say it's worked out very well ha ha. 

[Moni]

Hmm, Ceasar's method sounds like a good way to get bit if used in the wrong hands.

If a dog is growling about something, he/she is uncomfortable in the situation.  You need to make them more comfortable.    If they're growling and guarding that means that they're scared their "prize" is going to be stolen from them.  You end up reinforcing their fear, if you take it away by force or tease them by sticking your hands in their face or dish.

For an immediate reaction, I would walk away, go find a favorite toy or treat and call the dog over to you.  Ask for a sit/down/something and then reward the dog with the toy/treat.  If that doesn't work, get the other puppy out of the crate and shut him in it, by himself.  He'll want to come out eventually and that's when you can take the bone away and start working on this.

You'll have to take the bones away for awhile or only give them in the crate, one at a time.  Then you can start working on this guarding behavior.  Start with their kibble(are they kibble or raw fed?).  Stand by his dish with a handful of the tastiest treats.  Then while he's eating, randomly drop one in every couple of seconds.  His behavior will tell you how often you will need to do this; ie days, weeks or months.  When he starts getting happy with you being around his kibble and waiting for a treat then you can move to the next step.

Place only a couple pieces of kibble in his dish, when he eats them all and looks up, then you pick up his dish and treat him(YUMMY treats!).. make sure to do both at the same time.  Repeat as neccessary.  After he gets comfortable with this step you can add more kibble, but pick up the dish before he's done.  REMEMBER TO TREAT at the same time.  You want him to learn that he gets GOOD things when he gives up his "prizes".

Then during day to day things, you should keep kibble or treats in your pocket or in an easy to reach place.  If the puppy has something he shouldn't, call him over, offer the treat as you say "drop" or "give"(whatever you want).  Pretty soon he'll realise that he'll get something tastier or more fun in exchange.   

You can also work on this with toys & bones once he is at this point.  Call him or walk over to him for his treat, tell him "drop", give him his treat.. then give him the toy/bone back!  He learns that "drop" doesn't always mean he  never gets it back.   
(This method works great for recalls too!  Call dog, treat him, then release him back for playtime.  They learn that "come" doesn't always mean the end of fun.)

Its a bad idea to get physical with any dogs, giant breeds especially because if they learn that they have to use force to get what they want, they're gonna win, no hands down.  If you can get something accomplished by behavior modification, that's usually the safest way to go.  Best of luck!  I know that it can be trying at times!

~moni

[mama23+pyrs2]

OK, thank you both. That's a lot of info to take in so I will read and re read and try to absorb it all.

I don't want to tease them, and I didn't think that by petting them and touching them when they have a bone or something was..I was just trying to get them used to having someone around and trying to prevent the agression. With little kids around, someone is bound to take a toy away eventually, and I didn't want them to be like hey! wait a second, no one touches my toy, kinda thing.

I have a feeling with Yukon it is his dominance issue that is causing the behavior. Like I said, Yiska could care less..she is SO laid back and calm now. Yukon is a sweetheart but he is very pushy and knows he is top dog over her and I sense he is trying to be that way with us too. When he wants to be petted and loved, he will get up in your face, not want to take no for an answer. It is certainly impossible to pet Yiska or give her any sort of attn if he is around, he will either start pulling her by her ears or tail away, or he will nip you or put his mouth around your arm.

Don't get the impression I let this go uncorrected though, because I never do. He is always corrected for any unacceptable behaviors and he isn't catered to, but I was trying to explain how his dominance seems to really be factoring into things. Perhaps when he acts that way, I should crate him and Yiska can get the attention..I'm not sure.

I will look at these methods again and decide what to try and what works best for him. Thanks again

[People Whisperer]

When we were switching Lily to raw diet we had to face this as well. The first time we gave her the bone she would not let us touch her or the bone. My husband and I worked 3 days straight taking the bone away and giving it back to her with some extra good stuff so she would learn that if she give the bone to us she will get a better deal. After about 20-30 time she stopped reacting nasty. Now I can put my face on her lip while she is eating and she is fine.
It's a good thing you discovered this behavior early and your pups are still pups! I am sure you will cure this! Good luck!

[marinafb]

I think the method below works very well! All 3 of mine learned very young to not be nasty with there bones. Its up to us to teach them ! Marina



***********************************************************
Place only a couple pieces of kibble in his dish, when he eats them all and looks up, then you pick up his dish and treat him(YUMMY treats!).. make sure to do both at the same time.  Repeat as neccessary.  After he gets comfortable with this step you can add more kibble, but pick up the dish before he's done.  REMEMBER TO TREAT at the same time.   You want him to learn that he gets GOOD things when he gives up his "prizes".

Then during day to day things, you should keep kibble or treats in your pocket or in an easy to reach place.  If the puppy has something he shouldn't, call him over, offer the treat as you say "drop" or "give"(whatever you want).  Pretty soon he'll realise that he'll get something tastier or more fun in exchange.   

You can also work on this with toys & bones once he is at this point.  Call him or walk over to him for his treat, tell him "drop", give him his treat.. then give him the toy/bone back!  He learns that "drop" doesn't always mean he  never gets it back.   
(This method works great for recalls too!  Call dog, treat him, then release him back for playtime.  They learn that "come" doesn't always mean the end of fun.)

[Brownis15]

Dogs that come from large litters often have this problem! They have to protect their right to get food from momma and it often translates later into life with guarding. But its good you are starting to deal with it now. I agree with everything that has been said, nothing in life is free is a great non evasive way to start showing him who is boss, as is the food dish stuff.

Something to think about too, I would move the crate to different areas of the house or room it is in. Dont let it sit in one place. I have used this technique with many CPA clients (Canine Posession Agression) because what happens is, the crate is THEIR space, then a foot outside the crate becomes their space, then two feet, then three etc, until they feel they own the whole room. By moving the crate you are showing them YOU control the enviroment. Every week or so move it to a new place.

Before he started growling he was probably exhibiting the first signs of CPA, like going very still, eyeing you or Yiska. Growling is the second stage, its a verbal warning on top of a visual one. A wagging tail does not indicate a hapy dog, wagging tails is actually a sign of insecurity, it is shown in wolves all the time. We humans interpret it as happy gesture but in fact when our dogs come to greet us and their tails are wagging they are insecure. Sounds crazy I know, but a wagging tail should never be mistaken for a happy dog. The POSITION of the tail is what to look for. If the tail is down and tightly tucked under the rear the dog is scared, and if growling at this point he could be exhibiting fear aggression. If the tail is down but not tucked, the dog is submissive. If the tail is level with the dogs spine, the dog is calm, happy and relaxed and if the dogs tail is raised high, the dog is feeling dominant and in control. Puppies may not always have tail signs however, so it is best to go by the movement of the jaw, and the amount of eye contact.

My suggestion is to hold off on any high value treats for now. Work on the trading and treat him as though he is higher than Yiska. Remember HE IS NOT THE ALPHA!! you are. He is the beta and Yiska is the omega. On top of these exercises hold him in his back twice a day and pet his belly and give him a treat. If he struggles HOLD HIM until he relaxes and then release him. If he growls or snaps at you in any exercise or any situation, correct him by screaming as loud as you can NO in his face and pinning him down, just as his mother would have. It doesnt hurt him and he will get the point very quickly. Then stop all activity with him and ignore him for 30 minutes. I should note that you shouldnt have him growling at you if the exercises are working well. But sometimes they will test you. It is only safe to do this when hes a puppy and you still can control him physically. But typically, if the conditioning is going well they will soon WANT you near their food rather than away from it because it means something good is coming.

I should say i just finished fixing Atlas of this problem. hes been home for 2 weeks and I have had to sit with him at every meal, hands in dish, offering peanut butter when i too the dish away, giving it back etc and now he is totally relaxed. I had to condiditon him that human near food doesnt = food going away.

I hope this helps. You can always PM me and I can do a consult on the phone with you. I have worked with CPA and high level aggression dogs for a long time, and believe me it is great you have caught this now.

[GoldenPyrs]

Kristina, I just want to say thank you for starting this thread.  We are also running into some of these food protective issues with Sammy, the Pyr that we just adopted.  Since he was nearly starved to death by his previous owners, we were not surprised to find that he's becoming food (and toy) protective as he is getting well & strong enough to speak up.  We feed our dogs seperately, but I was about to ask for training suggestions, so thank you for opening up this discussion.  I'm sure that there are many of us that are learning a lot from it. I'm on my way out to do errands now, so I'll read it all throughly later this evening.  It's great that you are aware and ready to work with Yukon and that he's young and has been well fed & loved.