Author Topic: How do I stop play biting?  (Read 9340 times)

Offline Brenda

  • Gnawer
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
How do I stop play biting?
« on: April 19, 2007, 07:03:44 am »
My pup is 15 weeks old. He bites our ankles as we are walking.He bites our arms, legs, clothes!!! We have tried everything!! Any one with an idea?

Offline Gevaudan_Jo

  • Supreme Drooler
  • ****
  • Posts: 1894
    • View Profile
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2007, 07:14:51 am »
this might sound weird but...
When we were dealing with nibblers, we'd cover our areas they were nibbling on, in bitter apple. UGH, that stuff is nasty, and the dog sure learn... if they dont, while they are nibbling, give them a wee little spray in the mouth.
Good luck ;)

Jodi
Jodi & Darcy
Proud Parents of
Zero-Bull Terrier
Jigsaw-Bull Terrier
Repo- Jigsaw's baby Bull Terrier
Reba-Chinese Crested
Pavi-Xolo
Simba,Sabbath,Kimahri, Lil' Meow & Slimon-Cats
Robin the hermit crab and the 8 legged freak, Webley!
~ waiting at the bridge, Zeus and Memphis, great danes ~

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2007, 09:59:25 am »
Aww, what kind of pup is he? He looks very mouthy in the pic too lol. I've read that if they bite your legs or pants etc while you're walking, to not keep walking but stop and make them stop, so it's not like a game, don't let them continue to bite as you walk. My american eskimo was famous for that, you couldn't take one step without her being on your heels. My Pyrs started to grab my pant legs when we brought them home at 8 wks and luckily I nipped it in the bud. If they do it at all now, I make sure to stop and tell them no biting and they are quite intelligent and I know they 'get it'. What I still use, because they still get mouthy with me, especially when they are riled up with eachother, is to curl their top lips over their top teeth and apply pressure ( saying NO BITING!) so they are actually biting themselves. I do that whenever they grab me, whether it be playing or even soft mouthing. By now it just takes me doing it once, and they stop the mouthing immediately.

My pups are 16 weeks so almost the same age as yours! I've read where any kind of mouthing is a dominance test. I know they use their mouths like we use our hands and explore that way etc..but I also can see how it would be trying to exert their dominance and place in the pack by being able to put their mouth on you whenever they want to. So, I think of it like that and I don't allow it. Different things work for different dogs, but that's what happens to work for mine.

Welcome to BPO by the way, and good luck!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 10:00:54 am by mama23+pyrs2 »

Offline Brownis15

  • Big Paws-a-holic
  • **
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2007, 10:03:48 am »
that definately works! LOL except some pups quickly figure out when a guest comes over they dont have the b.a. and it all starts. lol.

I have a 11 week old GSD and he is a play biter too. Only I have been working with him since he came home at 8 weeks. It takes a lot of time because they are teething, but you will see results when they get older and mature a little. Atlas needs constant reminding. Basically anytime a tooth hits skin he gets a LOUD VERBAL reprimand of NOOOO in the face. and he immediately stops. Then we continue playing. It usually is when i have a toy in my hand and he wants it he jumps to grab it and gets my hand in the process. If he does, he gets a big NO and then i try again, he always takes it softer the next time. I never play with him long enough to get him so excited he cant control himself. He goes in his crate after 10 minutes of play. That way I am not setting him up for failure.

If your pup gets that excited, put him away for a few minutes, then try again. Dont get frustrated, just give him time. He is just a baby and his mouth is his hand. Also, to drive it home, try offering a tasty treat held between your thumb and your index finger, if he bites your skin to get it, scream NO and take away, then try again, if he is more gentle and his teeth dont touch, GOOD boy give him treat. You can use this as a daily reminder that teeth are NEVER to touch human skin. You can do the same thing with coating your hand with p.b. and letting him lick it, if teeth touch the skin, hand goes away. see what i mean? They learn the benefits of being gentle. It is important to not let ONE slip go unoticed or corrected, or you go back to square one. So make sure the whole family is on the same page too!

Atlas is a future K9 so our bite training is difficult, he has to learn to bite, but only when told to do so...adds an extra layer of confusion.  :)
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.”

The loves of my life

Atlas - GSD
Merlin - Papillon
SweetPea - Papillon

Offline schelmischekitty

  • Chief "All Knowing"
  • *****
  • Posts: 2321
    • View Profile
    • myspace
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2007, 10:04:04 am »
water bottles with ice in them work good.  put it on stream and shoot them in the face whenever they go for your pants or mouth your arm.  just make sure you always have it with you, and never let them get by without a correction of some sort.  the spray bottle also works when they're chewing on something you don't want them to.  also, if it goes on to chewing on the furniture, i've learned putting a little Tabasco sauce on the area keeps them far far away from it haha. 
steffanie in atlanta

aiden (4), tristan (2), & maya (born sept. 17th)
axle-140ish-lb akita (4)
peanut-5lb, 11 months chihuahua
[img width= height= alt=Image Hosted by ImageShack.us]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3339/alltogethernowme6.jpg[/img]

Offline Brownis15

  • Big Paws-a-holic
  • **
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2007, 10:43:30 am »
socialiing with other dogs also helps curb the biting! They learn it very fast and will be gentler at home. Doggie daycare or a play date would help! ;) :)
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.”

The loves of my life

Atlas - GSD
Merlin - Papillon
SweetPea - Papillon

Offline sc.trojans

  • Big Paws-a-holic
  • **
  • Posts: 327
  • Gracie and Skylar
    • View Profile
    • Natural K9
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2007, 06:16:13 pm »
Another question to start may be "should" you stop play biting.  I know it is annoying and it is critical as a result to RE-FOCUS your puppy's biting so that he doesn't got for pant legs etc.  The advice to stop moving, and making him stop so it isn't a game is good - but never reprimand for using his mouth in general.

I see dogs every day with horrible social skills - their play skills with other dogs are poor and so many dogs today end up with bite histories.  All of this is related to poor bite inhibition and this is caused by erroneously teaching puppies not to ever use their mouths.  It is SO CRITICAL that all puppies learn effective bite inhibition, which just means that they get good experience in using their mouth to understand the power of it and strength of their bite - these dogs, even if they develop other issues such as fear or aggression, are far more trusted to not bite or be too rough with kids.

Dogs are not born with soft mouths, but they are hardwired to easily develop the ability to bite softly and gently. The key is to develop this knowledge in your dog, not just turn it off so that he remains stupid to his mouth strength.

So I strongly disagree with any advice to yell NO, or use other aversive methods to discourage the behavior. Instead, focus the behavior where the puppy can learn the impact of his actions safely and properly.  The right conditions mean giving plenty of feedback about bite strength.

I always allow my young puppies from the age of 2-4 months to mouth on my hands and arms - as soon as it is too hard, I yelp and show them pain. Most puppies learn this and stop, gradually learning to be softer and softer.  Other dogs are also excellent at teaching this and finding good adult dogs with excellent social skills who also are willing to properly discipline are key. These dogs will growl and verbally discipline puppies for inappropriate behavior and are the best teachers - they should be encouraged.  I have one of these adults in my home and several trainers bring their socially challenged puppies over to be "schooled" by my adult girl.

I also provide lots of tough toys to exercise their natural biting and mouthing instincts - dogs should never be taught it is bad to bite or chew. They should be taught what they can bite or chew, and what they can't or shouldn't. Chewing is a natural dog behavior and mouthing is a natural puppy behavior as they learn and explore with their mouths.  I provide my adults with raw meaty bones to exercise this chewing desire and they have never been inappropriate with anything or anyone else.  Puppies learn the strength of their mouth so they can be trusted not to every use it improperly.

Just try to remember that these are dogs - not people and we must remember to allow them to be dogs and not put human expectations on them. You will have a more trustworthy dog if you do.

Here is an excerpt from Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash:

"Smart puppy owners allow some puppy biting in order to give the puppy information on his own strength. Puppy biting is such a valuable thing, in fact, that puppies who do not play bite should be actively encouraged to do so in order to develop a soft mouth. Start off by targeting harder bites. Let the puppy chomp away on your hands, and monitor the level of pressure. Although puppy teeth are sharp, puppy jaws are undeveloped, so this should not be unbearable. As soon as the puppy bears down a little harder, screech OUCH as loud as you can and as though it hurt much more than it did and look at the puppy like he is an ax-murder and leave the room for one minute. This time out is a clear refusal-to-play consequence that goes with the OUCH as the conditioned stimulus. After the minute has passed, return and resume. He may be more prudent temporarily, and he may not. Be prepared to repeat this process over and over, depending on your individual puppy. Puppy always learns eventually that if puppy bites too hard, puppy plays by himself.  It is more beneficial if multiple people implement the process for optimal learning (the exception being young children - young kids and puppies are an extremely dangerous combination).

When the puppy has consistently demonstrated some greater self control, you may start targeting even moderate pressure bites. The reason for doing this in stages is that the puppy will be unable to comply if you set too high an initial criteria. Little biting-maniac puppies can and do learn to hold back on hard bites, but they are simply unable to hold back on all or even most bites too early on. You're teaching him self control in manageable chunks and when he is mouthing you with little pressure, you can then teach him a "don't touch" command and redirect him to appropriate bite sources such as toys. At this point, he now knows that he may not bite humans at all, and you've got the critically important benefit of acquired bite inhibition."  Pages 67-69
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 06:21:11 pm by sc.trojans »
SC Trojans
with Gracie and Skylar

Offline Brownis15

  • Big Paws-a-holic
  • **
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2007, 06:41:21 pm »
I have found that many clients that try the yelp and leaving method have been unsucessful because the pup views it as an excitable reaction and doesnt calm down or curb the biting, then when they get up to leave the pup follows and bites the pant legs and ankles. Though I have seen it work for younger puppies 5-8 weeks.



So I strongly disagree with any advice to yell NO, or use other aversive methods to discourage the behavior. Instead, focus the behavior where the puppy can learn the impact of his actions safely and properly.  The right conditions mean giving plenty of feedback about bite strength.


 :-\ :-X I try to use a reprimand in the same fashion as adult dogs do. They turn and give a sharp loud "rarh" at the pup nipping on their heels and ankles, some even pin them, which i dont do for biting. I just give them a wake up noise to help them realize they have bitten too hard. The pup then softens its bite and is able to continue playing. For me, yelling no and taking the object away and then giving it back when the pup is softer is a way of teaching him that softer = good and hard = good things going away. So the pup does learn the impact of a hard bite. Sometimes it isnt a no but more of a AH AH AH! and you can see Atlas immediately soften up and calm down. Same with my peanut butter on the hand trick, which works wonders in teaching bte inhibition. The pup learns that softer = better. I should have clarified when i said anytime a tooth hits the skin, i meant that anytime a tooth hits the skin too hard.
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.”

The loves of my life

Atlas - GSD
Merlin - Papillon
SweetPea - Papillon

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2007, 07:07:36 pm »
Honestly, bite inhibition makes me a bit nervous. I have read about, know someone who is practicing it and it does make perfect sense to me. I have never however personally used it, (as this is something I've learned of recently) and our dogs growing up were not taught bite inhibition, though my mom did let one of my Goldens mouth her hands as a pup and he turned out to be a biter, if frightened or grabbed, he bit both my mom and dad and drew blood. The younger, larger one though who was the best dog ever, never, ever showed the least bit agression towards any of us. I think it is definitely possible to have a very well behaved dog who doesn't bite in any situation, who was taught not to 'play bite' or 'mouth' at all. There are so many theories and methods and peoples ideas flying around all over the place, it's very easy to become overwhelmed, confused and wonder if you're doing the right thing, or screwing up a dog for the long term. I think there is a difference between, allowing a dog to be a dog and placing human expectations on him/her, and expecting a dog to behave in an acceptable manner in order to peacefully co-exist with his human family.

Initially I did start bite inhibition but I personally found it very time consuming and not something that the children in the family could also participate in, rather a firm reprimand, correcting the behavior showed and almost immediate and positive response. Whether it's bad or something that my pups mouthing everyone has significantly decreased since using the latter, I'm happy that it has and I do feel like I'm teaching them a good thing. They are happy and they dont get forcefully scolded, they don't cowar or anything like that. It's a firm, quick correction and everybody goes back to playing nice again.

I just don't want people trying to correct the biting, feeling like if they don't teach the bite inhibition, they will have unhappy, dangerous dogs. I just don't believe that. But again, I do respect everyone's opinions and ways they want to teach and raise their own dogs, when they really want to do what's best for them. :)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 07:08:23 pm by mama23+pyrs2 »

Offline schelmischekitty

  • Chief "All Knowing"
  • *****
  • Posts: 2321
    • View Profile
    • myspace
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2007, 07:35:08 pm »
i agree, there are many many many many many different ideas on raising dogs.  in our house, we have very small kids around all the time though, so there is absolutely no mouthing / biting of people allowed.  at all. with our dogs being as big as they are and our kids as small, even being gentle our dogs could do a lot of damage unintentionall y.  on the other hand though, our kids are also taught not to hurt the dogs.  the dogs are however taught how to play with toys, and since we have 5 dogs they do learn bite inhibition from the other dogs, and are allowed to "be dogs," just around people they do have to be calm at all times.  that being said, our dogs have very good social skills with other animals.  they don't bother anything, be it a ferret, chihuahua, cat or squirrel.  we've never had anything more than a raised lip (from axle when two danes got right in his face and growled) from any of them in any situation in public / with other people's animals.  they love to interact with other animals and people, and are well rounded (except for diesel who's still spastic, but we're working on that).  i guess it's just like raising kids, you have to pick what fits your lifestyle / beliefs best.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 07:42:45 pm by schelmischekitty »
steffanie in atlanta

aiden (4), tristan (2), & maya (born sept. 17th)
axle-140ish-lb akita (4)
peanut-5lb, 11 months chihuahua
[img width= height= alt=Image Hosted by ImageShack.us]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3339/alltogethernowme6.jpg[/img]

Offline peytons mama

  • Veteran Dog Chomper
  • **
  • Posts: 152
    • View Profile
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2007, 06:21:53 am »
I just posted the same question about 2 weeks ago and I am still in the learning process!
I love the idea of bite inhibition, but...I think my puppy is too hard headed to learn it as we go along.
She will get too excited after the YELP! or OUCH! and she gets all happy and wants to play more. I would immediately try to get out of where we have her little play area and she is too quick...she latches on to my pants and I can't get over the divider.
So, just last night I started using a spray bottle. She can't stand it. With just the littlest tooth on skin action...she gets sprayed.
This morning when I let her out to go potty I took the bottle with me, she got squirt twice. But on the third time, she went to mouth me and looked up, I let her decide what she wanted to do...and she chose correctly.
I was doing the turn the cheeks in and let her bite herself with her own pressure thing and I think she was getting aggressive with that. She would growl at me after she bit me because she knew what was coming!
So the water thing seems to help much more.

But along with so many others on here...I am learning just as much as the other new puppy parent!

Keep the questions coming...I am sure I will have the same ones! My puppy is about 9 weeks old and is a rott/mastiff. I keep reading about the breeds and even though they are extremely smart, they are hard headed as well! So I have to come up with ideas just for her cuz some of the other ideas just doesn't work.
Your house isn't a home until you have made a bed for a dog.

Offline Moni

  • Majestic Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 934
    • View Profile
Re: How do I stop play biting?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2007, 07:21:31 am »
My advice is to use what feels most comfortable with your family.  I have raised my dogs around lots of young kids and I use very similar methods to what sc.trojans recommends and I find that it works wonderfully in our home.  I feel safer with my dogs knowing bite inhibition since accidents do happen.

Having raised a couple deaf puppies, I did have to modify it the above method a little since they couldn't hear the 'yelp'.  I would stand up quick, turn my back & head; making a dramatic body language show of ignoring them for a minute or so, and then play with them again once they had calmed down and were playing more gently.

I find that this also works nicely with those puppies who get overexcited with the 'yelp', too.  :)
BPO does not have my permission to use my photos.