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BPO Breeding Forum => Breeding Questions & Information => : lizzie January 05, 2007, 10:46:10 PM

: Somebody HELP!!!
: lizzie January 05, 2007, 10:46:10 PM

Hi Everyone :D I am new at this but, I have a very serious matter that I need help with. I purchased a bull terrier about 7 months ago. I paid $2000.00 for her. The first thing that I did was bring her to the vet. We got her shots and her I.D. chip put in and all of the other good (expensive) stuff that good dog owners are suposed to do. About 2 weeks later I started seeing some red spots under her hair. I took her to the vet and he said that she had Red Mange. He said that I would have to bring her in and get her dipped for 12 weeks. So I did and I am also giving her Ivomec and some other stuff. I wanted to breed her but now the vet tells me that this is the worst case of this type of mange that he has seen in his 30 years. I called the breeder that I got her from and asked what I should do. He said that none of his other litters have had this. So....... I don't know what to do. I love my dog but I don't want to be out $2000.00 and him get away with breeding and selling dogs like this. I would LOVE any suggestions. Thanks alot.
: Re: Somebody HELP!!!
: Gevaudan_Jo January 05, 2007, 11:01:07 PM
WELCOME FELLOW BULLIE OWNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love meeting new bullie owners. PLEASE feel free to email me. we can talk about this privately, i do know ALOT of breeders (good and bad) and my hubby works in the vet clinic. My first thought is, Do not breed her... it CAN be passed down. a friend of mine had a litter (not bullies) the mother passed down Mange... it was bad...
Anyways, feel free to email me
Ilove_tonyhawk@hotmail.com MSN too if u would like :)

Jodi
: Re: Somebody HELP!!!
: MagicM3 January 05, 2007, 11:12:29 PM
I am really sorry that this had to happen to you.
Did you get any health guaruntee with the purchase of this pup.??
For that price I would think you should.If so I would ask the breeder to see the health records of his dogs or at least the breeding pair.

I would also if you get no interest from the breeder except defenseness of *it never happened before* with no other help offered.Contac t the local or regional club for this breed and see if they can do anything for you.

I am happy that you love your new family member and are concerned for other pet owners.

Tricia and the fur kids
: Re: Somebody HELP!!!
: lizzie January 05, 2007, 11:16:50 PM
Hi thank you for the info.
: Re: Somebody HELP!!!
: lizzie January 05, 2007, 11:22:09 PM
Thanks for the welcome. UM.... No I did not get anything when I purchased this dog just a cute face. I have always wanted a BT and I was looking on the net and found the cutest face I had ever seen and had to have her. I didn't research the breeder or anything. I was stupid about the entire situation. Now I have learned my lesson. I just wish that there was something that I could do to make this right. Is there anyone that I could report this breeder to?
: Re: Somebody HELP!!!
: mynameislola January 06, 2007, 06:28:27 AM
Check your local and state laws.  You may be able to get the pup replaced or get your money back for up to one year under specific conditions.

Here in California we have a day or so to get the dog checked by a Vet. before the sale is final. 

Red mange is sometimes caused by a deficient immune system which can be inherited.  IMHO it is unlikely that yours is the only pup in the litter with that problem.
: Re: Somebody HELP!!!
: sc.trojans February 15, 2007, 02:37:53 PM
I just wish that there was something that I could do to make this right. Is there anyone that I could report this breeder to?

Nope - this is buyer beware and no contract, no obligation.
The best thing you can do to make this right is never breed her (demodectic mange is reflective of a very compromised immune system) and do all you can to take care of her - she will require a lot with a compromised immune system.

What did your vet say about the vaccines?  Do you think it is coincidental that after being injected with everything, the immune system malfunctioned?  Vets cannot legally say anything to implicate the vaccines, but they should now be telling you not to vaccinate this compromised immune system any further.

The one place you can report is directly to the manufacturer of the vaccine (they clearly print on their vaccine labels not to vaccine immune compromised animals, too young, or too old) and if your vet helps provide evidence of your dogs condition, some manufacturers provide compensation.  Also there is an adverse reaction reporting mechanism with the CDC you can go to if the demodectic mange arose post vaccine.  None of this will likely hold up however if you also piled on any other chemicals at the time: flea/tick/heartworm.  Manufacturers will all point the finger at each other.

Good luck with your girl....
: Re: Somebody HELP!!!
: TheUnSaintlySaintClan February 16, 2007, 04:57:12 PM
Hi, I haven't posted in awhile but I feel I need to weigh in on this. First of all, I am sooooo sorry you have to deal with this. My boy Simon has demodectic mange and I know how hard (& expensive) it can be to deal with it. We had planned on breeding him and ended up having to get him fixed (@ 1 & 1/2 years and 120 lbs). Needless to say the anesthesia alone was expensive. Not to mention the special shampoo, itchy medicine, and his Ivermectin.

I definitely would not breed your doggie. This mange is caused by a poor immune system that is handed down through generations and maybe your puppies wouldn't be affected but then again, they might. I don't know how you feel about it but with all that we went through with Simon, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I don't know where you are but where I live we have "lemon laws" for puppies. You need to check your local laws and see if you have something similar. Also, contact the breeder and tell him/her that you have veterinary proof of a genetic disorder. See if you can work something out. Unfortunately Simon's breeder moved out of state and I cannot get in touch with them. As for the breeder saying there are no other cases he know of, I wouldn't believe that. This mange is very pronounced and if he did miss something like that then he doesn't need to be breeding in the first place.

Sorry to go on and on. I get very upset when I hear about irresponsible breeders. We plan on breeding Saints eventually and would never think of breeding lower quality doggies. It just makes me mad that he would charge you $2000 and not back up his price with quality.
: Re: Somebody HELP!!!
: labmartin55 March 31, 2007, 11:38:29 AM
 :'(
I recently bought a 7/8 English/American Bulldog hybrid.  It was suppose to 7/8 English Bulldog and 1/8 American Bulldog.  Even though I was originally looking for a purebred English Bulldog, I thought about it and decided that since I wasn't going to breed or show the dog, it would be fine with me.  All I wanted, really, was the wrinkles and personality.  I had talked with my vet and he seemed to like the combination, thinking the 1/8 American Bulldog's contribution could help with some of the 7/8 English Bulldog's health issues. 

When I was growing up, on a show, I had seen the singer Toni Tennelle's white bulldogs, and I thought they were so, so  beautiful.  I really yearned for one of my own.  When I called this breeder and said she had one, I jumped at the chance, even knowing that it wouldn't be a purebred. When went to look at  him, I noticed that he was indeed white, but he had blue eyes.  I had never known of bulldogs having such a color combination, but I trusted the breeder to tell me the truth.  She assured me there would be no problems.

After I took Clancey to my vet, he said that as stunning as this color combination is, there was a chance that Clancey could become blind.  And if that weren't enough, to my disappointment, as Clancey has grown in the last two weeks, he seems 7/8 American Bulldog instead of English. Don't misunderstand my statement, I was in love with him the minute I saw him and so was my family and anyone that saw him.  He has a warm, outgoing personality and doesn't meet a stranger even at his young age.  I can deal with this breeder's deception of the mix, but the thought of him going blind devastates me.  Is there anyone else that has had a similar situation or that knows about the white coat/blue eyes health issue.  I could use some information right now!

Leigh
B'ham, AL 
: Re: Somebody HELP!!!
: sc.trojans April 11, 2007, 12:40:14 PM
Yes - I am very familiar with white coats and blue eyes in several breeds - this is a lack of pigment and often a signal that the dog is deaf or blind and never a positive health sign.  It is considered a recessive trait and health problem.

The Boxer breed, especially since it has become so popular in recent years also has problems with white dogs - and in fact the Boxer Club asked responsible breeders to never use a white dog in an effort to erradicate them and their associated health problems.  Unscrupulous breeders capitalized on the ignorance of the public not knowing this and sold white boxers as unique and special - they are usually deaf.

Dalmatians to a lesser degree, also watch pigment level on the ears for deafness - a common problem.  All white heads and ears are a sign of a problem here and most look for strong black pigment ideally.

Then there are cases of albinism in breeds such as Dobermans, which can be white.  Being albino present different and unique problems.

This is not to say that all white dogs run the risk of being blind - but certain breeds that should not be white, therefore run a high risk of blindness or deafness when they are white.  It is therefore critical that we support the breed standard for each breed and help protect it for this very reason.

Here is some information from an expert on deafness, written to a Boxer Breeder regarding the problem in that breed, that sheds some light on how the genes work and the white color is connected to deafness and blindness:

Dear Matthew,

I am unaware of studies specific to the boxer and white boxers. I suspect it is very similar to the circumstances of the Norwegian dunkerhound, where something like 75% of the whites are deaf [Foss, I. (1981). Development of hearing and vision, and morphological examination of the inner ear in hereditarily deaf white Norwegian dunkerhounds and normal dogs (black and dappled Norwegian dunkerhounds). Masters thesis, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY. 133 pp]. When deafness is first addressed within a breed, individuals will often claim that (1) this is not a real problem in our breed, or (2) no studies have been done so it is not a problem, or (3) what are you trying to do - destroy the reputation of our breed? This problem is similar among all of the breeds that carry one of the alleles of the piebald gene (extreme-white piebald, piebald, and Irish spotting). This gene is recessive, so dogs with white are homozygous. White results from the gene suppressing melanocytes (pigment cells). I have become convinced from working on this for more than a decade that a second gene regulates how strongly the piebald gene affects a dog, since the problem does not appear to conform to simple recessive inheritance. In Dals, weak piebald expression results in a patch, where the white fails to cover up the underlying black or liver color (these dogs are less likely to be deaf). Strong piebald expression leads to suppression of melanocytes in the iris (=> blue eyes, more likely to be deaf) and in the blood supply of the cochlea (=> deafness). One deaf ear is still genetic deafness and these dogs produce increased numbers of deaf offspring. Clearly from the data you compiled (the first Iíve seen) deafness in boxers does not require that the dog be white, but if it IS white the chances are much higher. In English cocker spaniels deafness is absent in solid colored dogs (I've only seen one case, and it may have carried one copy of the recessive piebald gene) but present in parti-colors. In bull terriers, deafness is 10X more prevalent in whites than in colored (which still have white). Note also that if one is not looking for deafness one often does not find it -- typically for each identified dog that is deaf in both ears there will be 2-3 dogs deaf in just one ear, and these dogs are not at all obvious from behavior, so they get bred. These uniís at a young age show difficulty localizing the source of a sound, but they soon adapt.

It is my opinion that white boxers carry a version of the regulatory gene that causes over- expression of the piebald gene, producing heavy white color, blue eyes, and deafness. Breeding these dogs back into the boxer gene pool will very likely increase the overall incidence of deafness in ALL boxers (white or otherwise). I do not know the genetics of BCM, but it is not likely that white boxers are free of the defect, and nothing associated with pigmentation (or its absence) should logically protect against BCM. Breeding a white boxer without BCM back into the breed gene pool is not likely to affect BCM incidence, and in fact could worsen it if BCM is polygenic and the white boxer carries some of the responsible genes. If asked, I would be opposed to breeding white boxers -- to either whites or colors. If this practice is continued the prevalence of deafness in all boxers will increase as has happened with other breeds. I know that there is a strong group of advocates for white boxers, mostly because there is always attraction to something novel. To me it seems totally without logic to continue a breeding practice which, based on all available knowledge, will increase the prevalence of hereditary disease in a dog breed.

I hope this is of some help. I would appreciate being kept up to date on any data you accumulate.

George M. Strain
Associate Vice Chancellor
Office of Research & Graduate Studies
Louisiana State University
240 Thomas Boyd Hall
Baton Rouge, LA 70803
Voice 225-578-5833 Fax 225-578-5983
ORGS Web: www.research.l su.edu
Personal Research Web: www.lsu.edu/deafness/deaf.htm