Big Paws Only Dog Forums
Mountain Dogs => Bernese Mountain Dog Discussions => : Kierstyn April 02, 2007, 09:54:16 AM
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Hello,
I have a female Berner that I am looking to breed. I just wanted some tips on what should be expected. Some of the main issues are;
Is there a certain age I should wait until? I have been told anywhere from 18 months till after her second birthday. Does anyone have any ideas about this?
Also, I have heard they have alot of birthing problems...My family has been breeding dogs for 15 years... mostly small to medium dogs so I know a bigger dog is going to have her differences. WHat sorts of problems do they have!?
Any help will be great!
Thanks
Kierstyn and Faith
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Is there a certain age I should wait until? I have been told anywhere from 18 months till after her second birthday. Does anyone have any ideas about this?
Atleast 24 months old and not until she has passed all her genetic health testing including~
OFA Hips
OFA Elbows
CERF
OFA Cardiac
Von Willebrand's Disease
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With Giant breeds you should wait AT LEAST until after the dog turns 2, though I know that Berners can have epilepsy which doesn't show up normally until 3 sometimes. So I'd recommend to wait until then at the earliest.
They should have hips and elbows OFA'd, eyes CERFed and heart clear of DCM(enlarged heart) and tested for Von Willebrand's(which is a blood clotting disease like hemophilia in people).
A breeding qualtiy dog should have either working, obedience, agility and/or conformation titles, a mix of titles would be most ideal. They should also pass at least a CGC, but a true Temperment Test judges their personality to their breed standard and appropriate reactions for their breed. A Golden should not act like an Aussie and vice versa.
Finally they should be free of any disqualifying faults, a good breed judge can tell you your dogs good and bad points. No dog is perfect, know what your dog's faults are so that the dog you plan on breeding to will compliment yours...
I hope that answers some of your questions.
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I just have one question... is it said to wait until they are two just because all the testing is not done? I am just going to say that she will have no testing done. She is ungregistered and all pups are going to family and friends. I have read in an AKC book that anywhere after their first birthday is fine to breed. But they suggested to wait until their 2nd birthday just to clear all tests. I just wanted to know everyones thoughts on the age thing...withou t waiting for tests.
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Not only is two recommended for health testing, but that is usually when the dog is fully matured...
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A giant breed(which a Berner IS) is not physically done growing (AKA matured) until 3 years old. They are a "big head " breed, so their rate of emergency c-sections are HIGH. Just a little FYI to prepare you for the middle of the night ER trip to the vets to help remove any stuck puppies.
The fact that you are not going to do ANY testing, and already know that testing should be done means that you are going to do whatever you want anyways. So why not just say that you're going to breed her during her next heat to whatever available male you come across. Then all the nice people trying to calmly explain the proper and responsible way for breeding HEALTY dogs will not waste their time, since you really already have your mind made up?
Don't forget that more and more states are having puppy lemon laws, so when the puppies come down with health problems the new owners can come to you about it for finacial help for treating sick, dysplastic puppies. As far as going to family and friends, you have 12+ people who are willing to give a Berner a home for life? Then when these 12 people breed their Berner puppies in 2yrs and etc.... yup, thats a lot of unregisterd, untested Berners.
If I sound a bit bitter, its because I have taken in and paid for the multiple health problems of many dogs who came from similar situations. Just one litter, no health tests.. family and friends, blah blah blah...
another fyi, these are my views and opinions, so don't get angry at the webmasters or anyone else, its Just My Humble Opinion. You just caught me after a couple of weeks of spending over yet another grand to get my Deaf Great Dane from untested parents back over into the world of the living. So yeah, pardon my extreme bitterness when I see someone else planning to do it again intentionally. ...
Best of luck to ya
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Well, perhaps these posts won't change your mind, but I hope you'll think long and hard on the life your pups will have. I am convinced my Annie could have been a 'puppy factory' before we got her: 7-years-old, never been spayed until the shelter 'angels' found her, dumped along the freeway to fend for herself. She had been tied up, and it damaged her vocal chords so severely that she had to have surgery and now can't bark. Many people look at the "oh, puppies are sooooo cute!" but they don't know the first thing about making a BigPaw part of the family. The dog gets lonely out in the yard, and gets bored and digs out, or eats the landscaping, so the owners tie it up to control it. This confinement can lead to hip problems (which Annie has) and all sorts of other difficulties for the dogs. Not all dog lovers are prepared for the expense of a big dog. What then? Will you take back those puppies? The shelters and rescues are filled with hundreds of big dogs that were SOOOOOOOOO CUUUUUTE as puppies, but then got 'too big' and dumped. Please, if you are going to join BPO, be willing to listen to all sides of an issue. There are many wise people here, with much good advice. JMNSHO
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Hello,
I thank you all for your concerns. But I must say... I took my girl to the vet yesterday to see what he had to say about the whole breeding thing. He said that after 18 months is fine to breed. He said the younger the better becauSe the older they get, the more problems they have because their bones become brittle.He also said that testing is a good idea... but that only means you will get more for your pups. He said Berner's do have problems giving birth (which I already knew) but ALL BREEDS have that chance of having problems. Like I said before, my family has bred dogs for voer 15 years. We have bred Cockers, Hounds, Dalmations, and Boston Terriers, and trust me I have had my share of bills from ALL these dogs. I have had ALL these dogs have birthing problems. And also, I have had my share of bills with people needing help paying for their dogs. I have read about these dogs for over 5 years. She has been my dream dog. She is unregistered, her parentes and grand parents were unregistered and I will be breeding her with and Unregistered Male. I thank you for all your concern, but I must say something, people with registered dogs have a totally different veiw then thsoe with un registered dogs. None of our dogs have EVER been registered. Papers mean nothing.
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Registry doesn't make a healthy/unhealthy dog. All a registry is is a family tree, period. I've rescued plenty of unregistered dogs. So don't give me, the "people with registered dogs" hoopla.
Snubbing your nose at health testing is irresponsible and selfish, and the dogs are going to be the ones to suffer for it, period! The ONLY reason a person would not health test when they know it should be done is because they are looking for ways to cut costs and want to make even more MONEY from the puppies they sell from breeding their bitch as many times as possible. Right? I mean, what other reason would there be? What is your reason?
The fact that your family has been breeding untested & unregisterd dogs for over a dozen years, well I'm not even going to get into that. It just proves my point. Especially since you say that you've already had to help people pay for their dogs problems.... whatever. I think you are just trying to stir up trouble.
It must be nice to be able to breed dozens and dozens of unhealthy puppies and not feel guilty about pouring more unwanted dogs into the world to add to the thousands of dogs killed everyday. Must be nice.
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I think you are just trying to stir up trouble.
I agree.
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As someone who has been showing dogs, and has been mentored for about a year or two for breeding, Yet has never bred... i say this...
To you, papers mean nothing... because your dog has no papers? Papers= the dogs registry= shows its parents, and its educational to the potential owners to see who the parents are, who the grand parents are, etc. etc. knowing this information EVEN FOR BREEDERS, is potential in picking perfect matches for their breedings. they will choose very carefully. only the best health, the best standard and the best for the breed... and then carefully plan their breeding for about 2 years before jumping into it... Yes, many breeders that i know wont breed until their bitch is at least 3 or 4. it helps with careful planning, full on health checks. etc. And your vet saying that a health cert. is only worth jacking the prices up- VERY WRONG.
The price of the puppy is worth...
A)paying for showing
B) Finding and paying for that stud, (flying him out, or sending the bitch to him)
C)paying for all parents vet care, food, etc.
D) Paying for those puppy check ups
E) If something goes wrong durring welping, there is a good vet bill that will need to be paid...
F) Registering each and every pup...
G) Full on health tests.... (for instance, my breed needs BAER, Heart, Liver Kidneys and patellas)...
Just for a few examples... So... don't think people are jumping at you for any reasons, other than trying to just educate you and show you what "Ethical" really is... how breeding effects more than just you and the money that goes into your pocket...
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ok, this is a touchy subject. genetic testing, etc, isn't just so you can jack prices up. people get it done because they owe it to the breed, the potential adopters, and especially the dogs involved to check for any problems that could shorten their lives, cause them pain during their life, etc. it's done out of love because the breeder wants the best for everyone involved and don't want to cause unnecessary pain and suffering to anyone involved. waiting at least until their two is simply because of the maturity. just like people, yeah, you can have a baby at 14, BUT you won't be mature. it's more likely that a 14 y/o teenager will not take care of her baby, or maybe she wants to but just doesn't have the ability to. it's the same with dogs. most breeders care about their dogs being grown not only physically but mentally before breeding. i have 5 dogs and not one of them is registered, BUT i have also gotten 3 of them from BYB litters (and peanut from a "reputable" breeder) and i am paying dearly for not getting them from "tested" parents. axle has HD, ED, he's cross eyed, has skin and stomach problems, and the list goes on. caine has skin problems. peanut has problems with his mouth structure. diesel, our dane, i don't even want to go there. he's beyond unhealthy. all because people wanted their "baby" to have babies, or they just wanted the money involved, and didn't care about the things that should have been done before hand. why did i get them then? because they needed someone willing to take good care of them, regardless of their health problems. peanut, actually came from papered parents and has papers that i just won't send off, and he still has problems. people here aren't trying to bash you, but you really aren't showing much love towards the breed by just wanting to have puppies so your friends can have one.
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Hello,
Once again I accept everyones points of veiw. One more question. If I went along with the testing... as I do have a chance next year to go with a family friend, does it matter that she is unregistered? Is it the fect that she is unregistered why i shouldnt breed her?
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Hi Kierstyn. Welcome to BPO. I'm Misty and I have a 10 month old English Mastiff named Gracie. Let's see. I think the point of breeding is to BETTER THE BREED!!!! As you've stated, you have no papers, titles, your dog does not come from any champion lines or anything to prove that your bitch would contribute to a higher standard of her breed. Don't misinterpret that your dog is not wonderful and not capable of making cute puppies simply because she has no papers. She just may not be a great representation of the breed for many reasons. ...such as Health tests which will help you know that. Like Jo mentioned, have a judge look at her and tell you where she is strong or week in appearance compared to the breed standard. My English Mastiff Gracie is the most wonderful dog I've ever known but is not at all a good representation of her breed YET she has papers. She's only 10 months and I have no idea what sort of health issues we'll encounter but she will be spayed either way even if she's all clear of medical issues god willing. The point is, here that breeding is irresponsible when you make no attempt to better the breed. Avoid health issues. Continue to strengthen champion bloodlines which make healthier dogs and not just make cute puppies. I can't say it enough. Better the breed. That is why!
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although YES, papers make things a ton better and i do believe that breeding should be done to "better" the breed let me say this. if you are going to, no matter what, if it was me i'd prefer that the dog be tested rather than not tested and not papered. at least testing shows you do care. not sure you care what i think, but just thought i'd get that out. will this be the only time you breed her? if you are "no matter what" breeding her and will not consider not doing it, please do a "pet only spay / neuter contract" and follow up on it. this will help ensure that the puppy will not end up at a puppy mill. also, do screen adopters to make sure that they know what they're getting into (adult dog size, the fact they're a working breed, costs involved, etc.) breeding has so many "what if's" to it. what if the breeding / birthing goes wrong? what if the puppy ends up in a bad home / shelter, etc. what if the puppy ends up neglected / abused? this is why i don't breed, i can't handle the what if's of involving what would happen to the puppies, even if my dogs were 100% perfect for the breed.
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Whoa...While I FULLY support (to the infinite degree)that breeding requires education and must be done to the betterment of the breed...Let's remember why most of us came to this site-- for education. Bashing others for their opinions is not productive. I'm a perpetual lurker on this site, and I genuinely enjoy and value the information that I have received, but attacking others is not helpful. If anything, it will deter others from sharing opinions, impede the learning process, all to the detriment of our animals.
Okay, taking my therapist hat off for now......
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Hello,
I have talked it over with alot of people, and have decided the tests will be done, even if she is unregistered. All out puppies we have bred over the years have been sold on a spay/neuter contract and we do follow up on that. Proof is to be sent to us before the pups birthday. ANd if not, as the contract states, me and my family will take back the dog. THanks for everyonese help.
This is the last time i will be on.
Thanks again
Kierstyn
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Kierstyn- Please reconsider- it is estimated that every day 800 dogs are euthanized on an hourly basis because there were not enough homes and enough people to love them. Your family and friends could find some wonderful deserving pups in rescues or high kill shelters that are just as wonderful as your dog. You have no guarantees that any of these puppies that you are wanting to bring into this world would have forever loving homes for thier entire lives. If you are raising them for livestock purposes, or show, or guardians- thats one thing- but just because, is a some what selfish gesture. I hope that you dont take any of this the wrong way- but it is sad and heartbreaking to know how many dogs are euthanized on a daily basis.
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Hello, just curious, is this your ad???
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-breeding-WANTED-Bernese-Mountain-Dog-Stud-Service-W0QQAdIdZ11996624
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I, for one, would be too curious not to come back and check for more replies, so I am going to reply...
If your vet said that tests are just a method of getting more money for the puppies, change vets. Your vet does not have the best interest of those potential puppies in mind, nor does that person know what they are talking about.
I agree with everyone here: Breeding really should be done to better the breed. Breeding dogs should be champions. I'm sure you're baby is great, but why not just enjoy her yourself? Maybe the homes you've lined up (particularly if you've lined up the 11-13 homes you'll need for the babies of a giant breed) can check out your local shelter. How wonderful would it be if that many dogs who might otherwise be put down found homes? As far as owning papered dogs, I don't: my Lab is a rescue who had papers at one point and came from who knows what kind of breeder and I didn't care to send in my Saint's papers. This discussion has nothing to do with who has papers and who doesn't; it's about the well-being of your dog and the puppies she might have.
I don't think that people here have been harsh. It's hard to get a point across that you are passionate about, particularly when you feel that people may not listen. As someone involved in rescue in my town, I get an email everyday-EVERYDAY-with a list of animals who are up for euthanasia at the local pound, complete with their "deadline", a description, and a photo-animals being put down everyday. Our pound puts down 13,000+ animals a year, and we have a large no-kill intitiative. They do the best they can. Sometimes I wish that everyone got that email. The dogs are all great. Please don't contribute to the problem.
At the very least, get a better vet who knows what they are talking about. At a minimum, you owe your dog that.
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I work at the Humane Society and I put dogs to sleep every day. It's not a job I am proud of. EVERY DAY I do it because we have no room and the dogs keep coming. Most of the dogs got too big OR got a health problem they couldnt afford to pay for so gave them to us. We send most giant breeds to rescue, but occasionally, we get one that got too big to stay indoors and lived outside its whole life and became aggressive and territorial. Those dogs get worse at shelters and become unmanagable, and we have to euthanize it.
Please please please don't contribute to the problem that i deal with every day. BREED for a REASON not just to have pups to give to families and friends.
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I work at the Humane Society and I put dogs to sleep every day. It's not a job I am proud of. EVERY DAY I do it because we have no room and the dogs keep coming. Most of the dogs got too big OR got a health problem they couldnt afford to pay for so gave them to us. We send most giant breeds to rescue, but occasionally, we get one that got too big to stay indoors and lived outside its whole life and became aggressive and territorial. Those dogs get worse at shelters and become unmanagable, and we have to euthanize it.
Please please please don't contribute to the problem that i deal with every day. BREED for a REASON not just to have pups to give to families and friends.
You should not be ashamed. So many people fail to recognize the problem. Those of us that do "see" it and do our best to help can usually still step away at times. You can't, because you're in the middle of it. It takes a strong person to stand in those shoes.
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Thank you. As a result of my work I can say i have developed a bitterness to people in general, mainly people that dont see dogs the way i do, as REAL souls and we are the only "voices" they have.
Kierstyn, In my opinion if you want puppies so bad, foster a litter from your local shelter, and have your family and friends adopt one of those. Everyone wins. We have a litter of Anatolian Shep/Lab mixes right now that no one will foster because at 5 weeks they are already huge, and they need people who have big dogs to foster them and find people who want them, because big dogs are hard to find homes for.
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ok, you guys know i love you, i also really do agree, and i really do support rescues and rescuing animals in need. but, i wanted to put in that we should have also included these good points in our statements at the beginning. i only say this because she has agreed to testing which was originally what everyone said they wanted, but now all new things (although VERY legitimate) are coming up. it would seem to a new person you're finding reasons for her personally not to breed. i know this isn't true, i'm just saying that if i didn't know how great you guys are, that is the impression i would get. just wanted to bring this up because i didn't want her to think that we are out to personally bash her, it's just that no one brought these points up originally.
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just wanted to add that i'm not saying that i think you guys are wrong (i agree whole heartedly), i just wanted to put that we're not singling her so that she may come back and consider what we're saying and not run off thinking we're hateful or that we're out to bash her.
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I just have a few quick points to make and to add.
-YES, you should test your Berner. As a responsible and caring owner I would think that you would want to. Not only will it make sure that she is not handing down defects to her pups such as cancer, bad eyes, hip dysplacia (sp?), ect. It will give you a heads up as to anything that she might have wrong with her that you didn't know about. If you catch things sooner then they are usually cheaper and easier to fix. If you do not want to spend the money on testing your dog now do you realize how much it is going to cost you anyway to have the litter? The c-section, puppy check ups, shots, extra puppy food for the mom, food for the puppies, countless hours of lost sleep because they all whine at the same time....
-NO, no, no, no, no! you should not breed her before she is 2 years old. It runs a higher risk of her getting hurt, dying, or her pups dying. It also runs a higher risk of her pups having birth defects. As well as the HUGE factor of her being too young to be a mother. If you wait for her to mature she most likely would be a great mom. When you breed too soon you stress the mom out and you can end up with her not taking care of her pups properly. I would never breed my dogs before 2 years. I would rather that they never had pups
-It is up to you as far as breeding with or without papers. I personally do not think that it is a good idea. There are already enough Berners in the world to adopt or buy. If you personally just want to breed because you think that she is a great dog I do understand. However, that is still not a good enough reason to breed her. Most likely at least one third to half of that litter will end up homeless or in a shelter. Do you really want to make the decision to breed her and know that half of her litter will some day be looking at being put down just because they aren't cute anymore? I have a shih-tzu who is gorgeous....I have had a ton of people that wanted to use him as a stud...he doesn't have papers and people don't care....but i care....shih-tzus are cute puppies but they aren't so cute when they are peeing everywhere and biting on ppl's kids and before you know it they are sitting in a cage at the local spca. i love sparky and i would never trade him for any other dog but not all ppl commit to their dogs like that. if you do breed be very picky who you let take the puppies.
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I am sorry but another negative input here I also own a Berner from a reputable Breeder both parents health tested and hip and elbow scored and both parents met.They can be a hard breed in as much as they take longer to grow up and I did plenty of research and am still learning loads about the breed.Also some serious health issues.
He is a gorgeous boy,but he was neutered at 6 months as we did not want him for showing or breeding personally I do not know anything about it,and if at anytime I did want to venture down that road I would ask my Breeder to give me as much help as possible as she has been breeding for many years.I don't think you should breed till she has turned 2 and although as you say pups are going to Friends and Family that does not make it ok not to have the relevant health tests done,those of us that bought with the tests done know we could still encounter many of the problems this dog suffers from and it will be end up with losing them at an early age and having to deal with some heartbreaking situations possibly but to a point we are prepared.
At the end of the day you will make your own decisions but I do hope you will not take them lightly and give the input you have been given some serious thought before making your final decision.Wishi ng you well whatever you do and not intended as a personal attack just a lover of the breed and I personally wish more thought was given to breeding any breed before people venture into it.
May save so many dogs ending up in rescue.
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Hello,
Once again I accept everyones points of veiw. One more question. If I went along with the testing... as I do have a chance next year to go with a family friend, does it matter that she is unregistered? Is it the fect that she is unregistered why i shouldnt breed her?
Hi Kierstyn:
You have received a tremendous amount of information on why you should not breed your girl and I just wanted to clarify a few things as a Berner owner and one who works in Berner rescue, with fosters here right now.
It is not that your dog is unregistered that you should not breed her per se - but you also do not seem to understand the larger implication.
The reason for that age of two years old for testing is because the Orthopedic Foundation of America (www.offa.org) will not "ceritify" hips, elbows, shoulders etc. before the age of two because the growth plates have not closed and the dog is still growing. Many orthopedic problems like hip and elbow dysplasia are not readily apparent before this time as a result. A good breeder would never breed a dog without orthopedic clearances and I hope that you will seek this certification through the OFA at a minimum. An even better orthopedic indicator is the PennHip which you can do earlier, but again you do not know what you have yet in a Berner under the age of 2 - she is still a baby!
How about the serious genetic incidence of malignant histiocytosis? What genetic research into your girl's pedigree (and the male you are using) have you done to try to manage this problem? I lost a Berner at 2 years and 9 months to this incidious disease and you won't be doing anything responsible if you ignore it and breed without regard.
How about Von Willebrands disease? Without testing both your girl and the male you use, you could be passing on this fatal disease that I wouldn't wish on anyone. If both dogs parents are clear, then they by definition can't carry it either, but if you don't know who the parents are or better - they came from an unethical breeder, mill or poor eastern european county, then you have to test your girl and male to know.
I could go on with the health issues in this breed including CERF clearances for the eyes (entropian, ectropian and PRA are all in the breed), heart certification and more.....
But the most important factors here are beyond these: If you have an unregistered girl from unregistered parents it clearly says where these dogs have come from and the level of education from the people behind those dogs. And the lack of proper health screening over generations is doing nothing to help this breed. The reason so many are asking you not to breed is because you may have a girl who may be a very poor candidate for breeding, and a poor representation of the breed. Just because she is a Berner, does not mean she has the proper structure, size, and health that will contribute something to this breed since you are adding to the population. Every time I have encountered someone like you who just wants to breed their Berner that they got ahold of without any testing, genetic research, and proper showing to know whether their dog should even be bred - I have then seen the Berner and they are horrible examples of the breed. Poor structure or type does matter since it affects orthopedics and the way the dogs functions/moves.
Going back quickly to the orthopedic testing - simply testing your girl and the male honestly isn't enough. Go to the OFA website I provided and look at how dysplasia is passed to offspring. Good breeders study pedigrees and seek a mate that best compliments the weaknesses in their dog - it requires that they know what those weaknesses are and find a mate that will offset those. Great breeders also know that two "clear" dogs can still produce orthopedic nightmares because one must also study the orthopedic clearances of all the siblings of your girl and the male you select...as well as the orthopedics for their parents and grandparents. If her parents and grandparents don't have orthopedic clearances, then they were bred irresponsibly and your girl should not be bred.
One last example for you: I have been working for the past two weeks with two families who each purchased a Berner from the same litter, same breeder. This breeder bred a male who was only one years old, no clearances. She doesn't know yet what she has in that male and did it anyway. This is a young male who came from a good breeder, with orthopedic clearances behind his pedigree, but he didn't have them himself. His pedigree is well known 8 generations behind him. And yet, he produced a mess - seizures, encephalitis, severe hip dysplasia, OCD in the shoulder, a broken bone in one puppy, and disformed elbows in another.
The bottom line is breeding should never be undertaken without regard for what you are producing - the soundness and genetic health of those puppies and the fact that you are responsible for them for life - if their owner cant take care of them, are you prepared to take them all back? If you bring them into the world, you are responsible for their lifetime.
Unless you aren't breeding for the betterment of the breed....
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Actually, I would strongly encourage anyone and everyone to continue to post in this thread. Keep in mind that the original poster is not the only person reading this thread. There are many people reading this now and many more will read it in the future.
I, personally, do not feel that the original poster is being bashed. Yes, a few members are very blunt and passionate in their opinions. But, so far, I do not feel that anyone has crossed the line of civility.
I totally agree. Alot of dogs are in shelters or homeless, because of uneducated people, who just dont listen to what others have to say...
i think its a very good topic open for discussion and alot of people, i guarentee, have or has or IS pondering anything to do with this topic. doesnt really have anything to do with one person, or one specific breed, etc. etc. :)
Jodi
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SC trojans & Dahlie Juju have made some excellent points I really hope you read them and take note of them and decide not to breed from your girl.
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One quick look at www.petfinder. com and one can see the thousands of good dogs that have no homes. Why add to their numbers?
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I have two Berners. One is registered with breeding rights and the other is her daughter who isn't registered. Her father is from switzerland and he was suspose to get his papers here but the ownwers never did.
Anyway she was kept for breeding in the future. Even though she is not registerable I have already had a prelim x-ray at six months and will get all the teating done after two years of age.
She cannot be bred until two for many reasons, they are still puppies under two, health testing including hip, eyes etc. cannot be certified until that age.
Why would you want to bring puppies that may have horrible health problems? Please do some testing prior to breeding. It's heartbreaking to see ill puppies and dogs.
We are not trying to GANG up on you we just want the best for your puppies. (http://i11.tinypic.com/5xihqbs.jpg)