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BPO Puppy Forum => FAQs about puppies => : Pyr Heaven September 18, 2007, 08:16:17 PM
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Miles is SO bad. haha There's never a moment when he's into something he shouldn't be! And I thought I had the place puppy proofed!
He chews on EVERYTHING. I redirect him with his toys. I put bitter apple on places he really shouldnt be chewing...like the carpet, walls, coffe table. Yeah, it doesn't work. He could care less if it tastes weird!
He's so stubborn. He will only listen when he wants to listen. He knows sit, down, come, paw, off. And the only one he does whether he wants to or not is sit(and sometimes it takes me telling him 3 times and pushing his butt down to do it. Then he'll whine like I'm killing him for sitting! haha) hahaha Will he ever do the other commands when I want him to (not when it's just convenient for him!?)
And boy is he persistent. On walks, if I want to go a different direction than him, he'll sit his little butt down, face the direction he wants to go, and will not budge! Pretty soon I won't be able to get him to move!
I feel like I'll just be wasting my time at a puppy class. I don't think they'll teach me anything I don't already know. I don't know if they will have experience with especially stubborn puppies like Miles. He's not that easily motivated. What do you think. Maybe I should get a personal trainer?
My question is for you pyr owners. What advice do you have for me? I have a feeling the stubborness will only get worse as time goes on. Is there any way to change this behavior or should I just learn to live with it now? hahaha :D
P.S. The thing that made me start this thread...is the fact that I went to the bathroom...was gone for maybe 30 seconds...I come back...and Miles is STANDING on the coffee table! He is seriously nuts!
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Here's some pics of Miles at the park today. And he looks so innocent.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/grlnxtdor/DSC03631.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/grlnxtdor/DSC03637.jpg)
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I probably wont be the only one saying this, but well, he is a Pyr. And I think that he is probably very smart. So in additional to being a Pyr and smart, he gets bored. Puppy classes wouldnt hurt. And it will help with socialization and he will probably be in class with other puppies which might help.
Tug is finally getting past that chewing stage, but we have gone thru a couch and a love seat and so many pairs of shoes.
Positive re-enforcement is the main thing to remember, my Pyrs seem to respond better to when I am positive (and sometimes this is way hard to do with Bella)
And he is sooooo cute... I know... that doesnt help.
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hahaha. Yes. At this point I'm attributing his behavior to the fact that he's a pyr. But I still have hope!
I agree they are very intelligent and get bored easily. I just don't know how many toys I can get him! haha The place has toys all over! And he chooses things he should not have! For example, he loves my pantyhose! Biting and pantyhose do not mix! so I took a holey pair (because of him) tied it in knots and made a toy for him. Does he want it now? NO! Because I'm allowing him to have it! hahaha
He loves all dogs. Big, Small, and everything in between. We live in a condo....and tons of people have dogs. So there's always at least one dog we pass in and out of the place. And of course we have to stop and play. Also, there are play groups every sunday at the local humane society i was thinking of taking him to for additional socialization. I just dont see the point in spending 150 dollars for 1 day a week for 6 weeks of socialization ya know? I just feel like he and I won't get anything else out of a puppy class. I will eventually be taking him to an obedience class though. Once he's 6 months I'm going to get him in with the big dogs! haha That way I know he'll be learning more than just basic commands and such.
It's nice to know they (sort of) get better as they get older. hahaha :D
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Well I have been bad- Tuggles is not really socialized at all, I have got to start working on that and soon. Its just hard, we live out in the country and he has a country dog life. He gets to run and play in the woods and the creek and he has Bella and Zoey and his family. And we really never have drop in visitors. He totally freaked out on the refrigerator repairman on Tuesday. He had never even been on a leash until he was 7 months old. I should have video taped it, he was like a 70 pound fish out of water. But we always carried him when we went to the vet.
A postive for Tugs is that he has had Bella and Zoey teaching him how to be a big dog. They have done a great job and even took him on his first coyote run last week (no I did not preapprove this lesson) So he has learned from them the finer art to guarding and protecting and how to patrol.
He is also a really laid back little guy most of the time and he is still insisting on "hold me" time in the evenings. I started this when he was a baby and it is a requirement every nite. He crawls in my lap in the recliner and I just hold him and give him kisses. I have no idea what we are going to do when he is even bigger.
Pyrs are wonderful companions and they just want to have fun, Miles will grow out of it.
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Ohh, I don't even know where to start...
Pyrs are stubborn and very hard to train BUT it is possible and you have to really go out of your way to come up with the approach :D
We started puppy classes when Lily was only 9 weeks. She was absolutely wonderful besides heeling. I had to drag her around for almost 3 months before she actually started pulling, which I thought was a great sign. I still have to drag her when she chooses her own direction and there is nothing I can do about it...I have tried everything. Sometimes you could find me standing in the middle of the street crying because my nerves couldn't handle a pyr. Now, 12 months later we do Rally, Obedience and Agility and the instructors are so proud of her.
Here I go ::)
1. Never repeat a command, EVER and never give a command if you know he will not do. If you gave him a command and something unexpected came up, try anything to get his attention BUT make him do it.
2. Pyrs are not food motivated...No tice the time of the day when he is super active and don't feed him 5-6 hours before that.
3. Don't train him at the same time. When you see him happy and playful, take advantage of it.
4. Use 3-4 different treats and don't praise 1 treat for 1 command! One time give him 5, another 1, then 3 and so on.
5. Be creative and play "hide and seek" or "find a treat" games. When he finds you give him a whole hot dog or something super cool ;D
When he learns that you are a super duper cool mom and can do so many things he will pay attention to you and listen more than you could ever imagine
Good luck
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Here I go ::)
1. Never repeat a command, EVER and never give a command if you know he will not do. If you gave him a command and something unexpected came up, try anything to get his attention BUT make him do it.
2. Pyrs are not food motivated...No tice the time of the day when he is super active and don't feed him 5-6 hours before that.
3. Don't train him at the same time. When you see him happy and playful, take advantage of it.
4. Use 3-4 different treats and don't praise 1 treat for 1 command! One time give him 5, another 1, then 3 and so on.
5. Be creative and play "hide and seek" or "find a treat" games. When he finds you give him a whole hot dog or something super cool ;D
When he learns that you are a super duper cool mom and can do so many things he will pay attention to you and listen more than you could ever imagine
Wow, great advice. I will definitely have to work on MY skills to get him to respond well. I mean, I've raised puppies before, but once again, this is a pyr we're talking about. He needs something special to get him to fly through hoops for me ;)
Thanks for all your support everyone. I'm sure he'll get it eventually. I think I might enroll him in a class before he is 6 months considering that is 3 months away still. With distractions, he doesn't listen at all (except for sit). haha
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I forgot to add that my hubby calls me a retard when I train Lily...Coz I make all these weird sounds, jump around, stand on my head, etc. just to impress her, LOL ;D ...after all that I see these very dark, serious eyes looking at me and saying "god, mom, you are a retard!" LMAO
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Me I breed Pyrs and I don't expect them to be obedience dogs. My dogs are beautifully behaved, very social, and a child could walk them on a lead. However they are not bred to do repetitive commands and they are not bred to do something just because you said so- 2000 years of genetics. So you might want to temper your expectations a little so you are not disappointed in him. Much of what he is doing is just puppy stuff and I would try to find more activities out of the house for him to try to burn off some of that puppy energy. Any training that is given should be very positive and fun - that's the only way with this breed You can't force them and you can't bribe them they have to want to do it They can be a real challenge but if you understand the breed then you will not feel like you are failing and won't feel that the dog is deliberately disobeying.
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Yes...about not forcing :D We had a class tonight and the instructor doesn't recommend the use of treats. She says we have to be leaders, give corrections and dogs will listen. Yea, right, she should try it with Pyrs... I did! Ones! I gave a correction and Lily looked at me like "OK, one more and I will really NOT do a thing!" So funny! With Pyrs you can actually see how their brains work just by looking at their eyes :)
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oh man. I love pyrs. :D They crack me up. I'm pretty sure they're more intelligent than we are. haha
I do understand what pyrs were bred for and their strong independence. I also know it is possible to train a pyr to listen and have good manners.
I dont ever expect him to be some big obedience competition dog trying to show off his latest trick. I would've gotten a different breed for sure! haha
I do understand alot of this is puppy behavior. (at least I hope!)
Thanks for all your advice guys!!!
Oh! Also....
How long did it take lily to get TDI certified?
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The dog suppose to be a year old to get certified. Most of the people wait until their dogs 2-3. Pyrs are very calm so it is easy. Just make sure do not reinforce jumping and licking. Also, I highly recommend using restrained recall for "come". It makes a huge difference :D Group classes should help him to behave around other dogs ;)
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So was Lily only a year old when certified!? That is quite impressive if so. I think their disposition definitely makes them one of the best breeds for therapy work. They're so gentle! No jumping or licking. Got it. I think I'll start working on those two now. Also, we should probably get his mouthing under control too. hahaha :D
And good recommendation for the restrained recall. I think I will start him in a group training program soon. The one I wanted him to be in starts October 22nd but I think he'll be too old by then for the class!
I will have to start him in the next level up which I think will be fine for him. He already knows quite a bit for only being 3 months old. At least I'm pretty impressed with him. I just need to become more interesting, like you suggested!
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Yep, she was 1 year, and 10 days...I sure couldn't wait, LOL!
About classes, "the slower, the faster" works for us. After our puppy class where Lily took the 1st place at the graduation being the youngest pup (4 months) we stayed at the next level for 6 months and I swear, I saw no hope for a while ::) but she impressed me yet again ;D
This breed definitely makes you "humble" :D
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I dont ever expect him to be some big obedience competition dog trying to show off his latest trick. I would've gotten a different breed for sure! haha
There is nothing wrong with showing off Pyrs doing obedience routine...it is a routine (very boring) and not a latest trick. You could have done it with a Golden and judges see them all the time but when you enter the ring with a Pyr the entire building goes silent and all the attention on you...so cool and embarrassing at times when your lovely Pyr decides not to listen ;D
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Aren't puppies fun ;DMost of what you describe is puppy stuff and Pyr's are not the only breed that is exaserbating,sp?
But they do have their independent ways and fun games and making yourself the best playmate and God in their eyes is the best way to get and keep their attention.
Sometimes with Pyr's it's hard to tell if you even have their attention.But they really aren't deaf.And usually even at this young age they know where you are and can hear quite well.
You have gotten great advise here,and I will only add
Have you ever played the *Find my Eyes * game.It can be not only fun but inventive at well.
I have posted it before but I would be happy to send you a copy
Tricia and the fur kids
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You have gotten great advise here,and I will only add
Have you ever played the *Find my Eyes * game.It can be not only fun but inventive at well.
LOL, I love this game!!! It only took me 11 months to teach Lily...Yes, after 11 months she became interested to look in my eyes ;)
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Oleysa is modest! What she doesn't tell you is how much work and effort she has put into Lily and she is pretty impressive for just a year old. She (Lily) also is a daughter of a dog who made the Hall of Fame for Obedience by the time he was 4 years old! The sire has gotten every obediance and rally title there is, oh and yes a carting title before he was five, in addition to his championship. The only thing left for him is his UD and he is working on that! So Oleysa is trying to beat his record and she just might do it!
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Me I would love a copy of 'find my eyes'!!
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Oleysa is modest! What she doesn't tell you is how much work and effort she has put into Lily and she is pretty impressive for just a year old. She (Lily) also is a daughter of a dog who made the Hall of Fame for Obedience by the time he was 4 years old! The sire has gotten every obediance and rally title there is, oh and yes a carting title before he was five, in addition to his championship. The only thing left for him is his UD and he is working on that! So Oleysa is trying to beat his record and she just might do it!
It is not just UD! He might go for an Obedience Trial Champion title ;D
I have to admit, I am a total dog freak because I can't afford to have a child ;D
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Ok I am posting this again and if you already have it please forgive me for posting again.But I have found this game a lot of fun and have even invented new ways to add to the games.
But once you start and if you are very consistent and that means observant you can invent even more.
Tricia and the fur kids
PS puppies learn faster at this in my experience than the older dogs I have done it with but it's all in the timming.
Find My Eyes
Good trainers of any methodology agree that attention and
focus are the most important foundation behaviours to teach a dog. Attention games are great fun for dog and handler,and jump start the process of teaching a dog how to ignore enticing enviornmental distractions.
One of the games my dogs love the most is *Find My Eyes*
I use a clicker for this game but it's not necessary. You can use a verbal *marker* effectively as well. For those who are wondering what a *marker* is,think of a camera''s click.You know how you can click the camera button and catch all sorts of funny positions and facial gettures??The button capturing a moment in time. The click or crisp verbal marker word tells the dog exactly when he's done something right. It's a *freeze frame* to capture that moment in time you want to see repeated.
We use markers all the time in our lives without thinking about it. Love having your back scratched? What happens when the scratcher reaches a really itchy spot and you want the scratcher to concentrate on that spot? Likely you will make a sound that will tell the scratcher that this is an area to concentrate on. You may murmur *Ahhhh* and this is a marker to tell the scratcher to work in that particular itchy spot.
Obviously,using a marker is not mandatory in dog training,but it sure can speed up the learning curve!
It tells the dog exactly when he's doing something right.The motivation for the dog is that once he offers this behabiour,and hears that special criisp sound,it's his contract or promise that something really wonderful will happen next,play with a squeaky toy,etc....
With the *Find My Eyes* game,the handler doesn't entice the dog's attention with any words or gestures,but instead,allows the dog to figure out what will be rewarded. This part of the process teaches the dog to problem solve,something that will be so handy in teaching new movements or in chaining movements together. The dog learns that he doesn't have to wait to be directed or guided by a lure,a leash,a word or any other directed learning appllication,and instead,has to try a few creative things to earn the click and treat.
Directed learning works---yes of course!! And there are times it is the most expedient way to get a behaviour. But for teaching a dog to tap into creativity,to keep working on a problem until a solution is found--there is nothing like non-directed problem solving. It teaches the dog to OFFER behaviours instead of waiting to be guided through every step. It teaches the dog to be joyful in finding creative solutions,and this process often leads to the dog creating movemennts we may never think of teaching,but movements that can look smashing in our routines.
In *Find My Eyes* games the object is for the dog to find the handler's eyes as the handler's body changes position and as the environment changes from neutral to very stimulating.
To start the game,a bit of *doggy zen* can be helpful. Doggy Zen is where the dog has to give up something good to get something even more rewarding.So let's say you have a handful of treats,and you want your dog to look into your eyes. A directed learning approach would be something like puting the treats near your eyes to get the dog to look into your eyes,then to deliver the treat. A non-directed approach is to offer the treats as a *red herring*--as something the dog can focus on if it chooses, but nothing happens until the dog gives up focusing on that item he so badly wants--and looks up at you instead.
Sometimes it takes a few minutes for the dog to do this.Yes,luring is faster--but,what this no coerced,non-directed exercise teaches the dog is to Find Your Eyes of his own volition,without being coerced. Coercion can break down in stimulating enviornments. Call you dog's name when he's eyeballing a rabbit or feral cat running by; chances are likely many dogs will not even hear you,they will be totally tuned out and focused on the distraction. Your voice becomes little more than white noise.
By teaching the dog from the get-go to IGNORE what it most wants and look into your eyes for the chance to get something better,you are teaching the dog what is really the most rewarding focus at the same time you are teaching attention and to *find your eyes*. Nothing happens until the dog offers the behaviour on its own. Yes, takes a bit longer you are building a dog who will drill holes in your face with his eyes,even amidst very strong enviornmental and even genetic distractions.
Steps in Playing *Find My Eyes* game
1. Put treats in your hand and stretch your hand out to you side. Let the dog focus on your hand and don't try to stop him.
2. Remain motionless and just ignore all attempts to get the treats. The dog will give up,be just a bit baffled and frustrated, and he will automatically look to your face for some sign of what the heck to do next. That's the moment you were waiting for Non-coerced,OFFERED eyeball contact.
3. Click or use your crisp Verbal marker such as, Yes! or Yip! or anything short and fast--at the moment the dog looks into your eyes. Then give the dog one of the treats.
4. Move a step in any direction and do the same setup again.This time the dog will likely give up focusing on the treats in your hand quicker,and look into your eyes faster. Be ready to click/mark and treat.
5. Each time should get incrementally faster, with the dog quickly looking up into your eyes and receiving the marker and treat the moment he does offer it.
6. Keep moving around--circle, sit, stand, lie down. Keep increasing the difficulty as the dog becomes more and more adept at *finding your eyes* no matter what body position you are in or which direction you are turned,or which room you are in.
7. Add more distractions. Turn on the TV to the animal channel. Drop a noisy pan. Open an umbrella Get friends or family to make noises in another room or walk by and try to get the dog's attention. By this time the dog will already have the idea that the game is ignoring everything because when he does. BETTER things happen!
8. Take it on the road: start with your own backyard, and lower you expections at first when you move into this new, very enticing environment. Make *finding your eyes* very easy.Then start making it a bit harder each time.Turn,squat,lie down,run away from the dog. You'll soon have a dog who will run to find your eyes wherever they may be,and even when really distracting things are happening.
9. Move to incrementally more and more distracting enviornments. On the sidewalk down the block,on the sidewalk in traffic, on the sidewalk when skateboarders and joggers and stylists are coming by. Even when other dogs are passing by on leash with their handlers. In training facility etc...
10. When the dog can offer you eyeball focus in amidst distraction, you can even change the game a bit and use eyeball movement to capture tiny bits of body movement for teaching at a distance.
Laurisa Osheski a clicker service dog trainer in Canada,does this all the time for freesstyle movements she teaches all the service dogs. She *captures* those
nanoseconds of behaviour--the muscle twitches of beginning movement-by teaching the dogs to watch her eyes so closely, that when she shifts her eyeballs to the right or left,the dog will also start shifting its position. She then captures those little twitches or steps with the click and tosses a treat so the dog remains away from her,never having to come back in to get the treat.
This teaches the dog to offer behaviours at a distance. and the eyeball shifting can be a *lure* that induces movement at a distance without having to use hands or voice. It can even be incorporated into a cue, so that very subtle signals an audience isn't likely to pick up on can be worked into the routine.
This *eyeball targeting* is awesome! It can be used in so many ways-and all can be taught from a distance. rather than close up first, then adding distance. It'a a major time saver, and it all starts with *find my eyes* games.
The object is not to teach the dog to do a competition obedience wrap-around-the handler type of constant eye contact. but to learn to *check in* and find your eyes every few seconds,whether the dog is close or far away.
Several of us are now working on the *eyeball targeting* games, and what a challenge to get the dog so tuned into your eyeball movement that he dog moves whatever direction your eyes start to move in!
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Yes Lily. You seem to be quite the pyr!
And thanks for that game!!! Sounds great!!!
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Great suggestions Tricia! :D
I found that the easiest way to start "eyeball targeting" is tageting at the crate. Lily eats her meat in the crate. I used to say "place" and she jumped right in. When she learned to look at me before I gave a command I would "eyeball target" at the crate and she would go in right away ;D It can be used for the most favorite things of your dog ;)
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Don't feel bad our pups are the same age I believe BD 6-17-07 and Phoebe is just as naughty as Miles she cannot be trusted alone. I did break out the tobasco sauce yesterday and smeared it on the wood bench she decided to chew on it worked kinda she just moved to a different spot on the bench. BRAT!!!! Good Luck I have found that a daily walk really helps and she has finally gotten the heel down. Oh and she has her own thoughts about which way we should go people must look out and see me pulling her and think were mean man she is stubborn but I make sure I win.
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I forgot to mention the best game ever to get your Pyr moving :D I am not sure what is the exact name for it but I call it "push away". When Lily is super playfull and seeks my attention I push her away and say "get out"...she comes back stronger and stronger and gets really pushy, which is not very usefull at that point BUT when later she desides to choose her own direction on a walk or just stop for no reason or bark non-stop at the air I start this game and she forgets what she was doing before and I have her attention, Bingo!!!
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I forgot to mention the best game ever to get your Pyr moving :D I am not sure what is the exact name for it but I call it "push away". When Lily is super playfull and seeks my attention I push her away and say "get out"...she comes back stronger and stronger and gets really pushy, which is not very usefull at that point BUT when later she desides to choose her own direction on a walk or just stop for no reason or bark non-stop at the air I start this game and she forgets what she was doing before and I have her attention, Bingo!!!
Is that an appropriate game to play with a pup or does that encourage aggression? I ask because Phoebe loves to play like that but I try to avoid it thinking it may do harm.
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I forgot to mention the best game ever to get your Pyr moving :D I am not sure what is the exact name for it but I call it "push away". When Lily is super playfull and seeks my attention I push her away and say "get out"...she comes back stronger and stronger and gets really pushy, which is not very usefull at that point BUT when later she desides to choose her own direction on a walk or just stop for no reason or bark non-stop at the air I start this game and she forgets what she was doing before and I have her attention, Bingo!!!
hahaha! You're just full of great ideas! :D
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How much does miss phoebe weigh now? Miles is lagging behind in the weight and size category since he had those hookworms really bad. He is 3 days younger than phoebe....just turned 14 weeks yesterday...an d he only weighs 24 pounds :(. I hope he hits his growth spurt soon!
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How much does miss phoebe weigh now? Miles is lagging behind in the weight and size category since he had those hookworms really bad. He is 3 days younger than phoebe....just turned 14 weeks yesterday...an d he only weighs 24 pounds :(. I hope he hits his growth spurt soon!
Phoebe is bout 28-30lbs Im guessing she was 24 two weeks ago at the vet. I am glad to hear that he is doing well and getting into trouble like a pup should. He will catch up on the weight.