Big Paws Only Dog Forums
BPO Breeding Forum => Breeding Questions & Information => : shangrila March 07, 2008, 02:20:23 PM
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Dan and I are starting to think about the possibility of getting a new puppy. I am leaning towards rescue, he wants a breeder that we research more fully. He wants one today, but I am not quite ready. So we have compromised that he can at least talk to breeders about puppies that are either just born or going to be born soon, so that it will be another two months until we actually get her.
We think we want our next puppy to be a different giant because I think it would be too painful for me to get another saint right now after loosing zoey. So we have been talking about it and we think we are going to get a newfie.
There's a newfie breeder that he has been talking to who just had puppies. He found her through the akc, so I know she is respected.
Anyways, he is talking to her and she is demanding a lot of stuff from us before she would be willing to sell us a dog. At first she was asking for stuff I was expecting to ask for - she wants to meet us, have us fill out an application including vet info, household members, etc, and she wants to see pictures of our backyard which she requires to be fenced. Now none of that bothers me because; in fact I was glad she was asking all that because I want to have a breeder that shows they care about their puppies enough to be careful about who they sell them to. However, now Dan tells me she is demanding three letters of recommendation; one from our vet, one from a family friend, and one from our employers. To me that sounds like too much to ask for. I mean seriously, a letter from my boss? Now, my boss would have no problem writing a letter for me, but that's an imposition I would have to put on her time that I just think it's ridiculous for a breeder to ask for.
The breeder keeps saying that she won't compromise on her requirnments, so if we have a problem with any of them, then basically 'have a nice day'. But at the same time when I asked for ofa certs she said she would show them to use when we met her but would not email us the info before hand (so we could search for them on the ofa website). It seems hypocritical that she isn't willing to meet my requirenment that only shows I am carefully screening a breeder, but she is asking for so much that I think she is overstepping bounds.
Am I wrong here? Or is it normal for breeders to ask for that much?
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I don't really know how much is too much, but I just wanted to add this.
Just because you found the breeder through the akc does NOT make them respected or good. The AKC is just a registry. Nothing more. Why don't you ask HER for references? Tell her that you would like to speak with owners of her pups, you want phone numbers, etc. Don't ever feel like you are over stepping bounds by asking for the OFA certifications before you meet her.
If she isn't willing to give you what you want right up front, move on. There is absolutely NO reason for her to withold that information.
YOU are the customer. Its understandable for a breeder to want to know that their pups are going to good homes, but when they are not also ensuring YOU that you are getting a quality pup, then it is one-sided.
I'm getting bad vibes, but maybe that's just me. I'd keep looking if you have any red flags. YOu want your breeder to be someone that you feel comfortable with in the future, someone you can call and ask questions and where you feel as if nothing is a secret. If you are ALREADY having reservations, just think about what could happen when puppy is like, a year or two old.
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I totally agree. And good luck on your search for a pup!! SO exciting!
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when i was taking jazmine (dane) from the shelter, they asked for 3 refernces, resume, and credit check too.
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I know that I've said this before, so forgive the repetition if you've read it already, but.....
Please, please call the Newfy Club rescue person in the breeder's area for a reference on this breeder before you continue. I know that you said that you're interested in a rescue pup/dog also, so you could explore that at the same time if you like. Rescue will know if this breeder is as reputable as they say.
Halley's breeder is listed with the AKC & even today is in "good standing" with the Pyr Club & her dogs keep consistantly winning in the show ring. Though how she can be in "good standing" is beyond me. You won't hear anything bad about her or her dogs unless you talk to someone in the local rescue or other local breeders. Now, I might have discounted this type of info in the past as "sour grapes" b/c her dogs win so frequently, but not now. It's a tough call, but you have to decide who to believe.
After losing Halley at 3 y/o to bone cancer we found out that her breeder has a lot of cancer in her bloodlines & as she is closely line breeding, it is a very sad situation for the dogs & those of us that love them. This breeder is also known to be a nasty b----- and she won't pull her own dogs from rescue without a big fight. I checked her AKC & GPCA standing before we bought Halley, but I wish to Heaven that I'd checked with rescue & the other local Pyr Club people ahead of time. I'm afraid that this is more common than most of us know/knew. If we can all stop buying pups from the breeders whose dogs win at the shows, but die young from genetic problems, maybe in time we'll slow down their breeding program. If so, we'll be doing the puppies a huge service, as well as saving ourselves the heartache.
That all being said (and sorry it's long), I'm sure that you & Dan will find a wonderful puppy or dog that will make you both smile and fill your home with lots of happy dog sounds again. :) :-*
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I can't tell you what to do about this particular breeder but I can tell you that when we were looking for a flat coat we ran into some very demanding breeders. They wanted a letter or a phone call from our vet; histories on our other dogs and one wanted us to write an essay about what we expected our experience with a flat coat to be.
I wish more breeders were demanding and then maybe there would be less people obtaining dogs they aren't prepared for.
Best of luck - how exciting a new puppy!! :D
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Heather, if you know her kennel name or dam's name you can get on http://www.offa.org/search.html and see her dog's health records.
You must be super excited!!! Good luck :)
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As a breeder I can tell you a written letter of reference is NOT worth the paper it is written on! Anyone even a convicted rapist can get someone to write a letter of reference And yes it is good to ask a lot of questions about the breeding program health problems etc but be mindful that the breeder actually has things to do like take care of the dogs and puppies and spending several hours a day answering long winded emails may not be in the best interest of the dogs. A lot more info can be covered more easily in a phone call. And if you get references of past puppy buyers you can call them too. Rescues can also be a good source but only if that breeder's dogs are ending up in rescue. Otherwise what is the rescue basing their opinion on??
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I'd go through the Newf Club rather than AKC. I think she should give you the OFA info prior to you having to meet her. Recommendation s from a vet I could understand but employer and such is being a bit paranoid. Does she have a website where you can get a list of her dog's names? If so maybe get the list and then look them up yourself. We're in the New England Newf Club...I'm not sure when the next meeting is but you should try to go to one once you get a list of breeders you may be interested in. They have a breeder's list on their website and I know there are a few good breeders local as well as in New York.
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Hi Heather, I think I can actually know which breeder your talking with. i think its a bit excessive what she's asking for but ultimatly thats for you and Dan? to decide. I will say I would give Cathy (rescuer Cordinator for NCNE) a call or email. I will pm you her info.
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Dan and I are starting to think about the possibility of getting a new puppy. I am leaning towards rescue, he wants a breeder that we research more fully. He wants one today, but I am not quite ready. So we have compromised that he can at least talk to breeders about puppies that are either just born or going to be born soon, so that it will be another two months until we actually get her.
We think we want our next puppy to be a different giant because I think it would be too painful for me to get another saint right now after loosing zoey. So we have been talking about it and we think we are going to get a newfie.
There's a newfie breeder that he has been talking to who just had puppies. He found her through the akc, so I know she is respected.
Anyways, he is talking to her and she is demanding a lot of stuff from us before she would be willing to sell us a dog. At first she was asking for stuff I was expecting to ask for - she wants to meet us, have us fill out an application including vet info, household members, etc, and she wants to see pictures of our backyard which she requires to be fenced. Now none of that bothers me because; in fact I was glad she was asking all that because I want to have a breeder that shows they care about their puppies enough to be careful about who they sell them to. However, now Dan tells me she is demanding three letters of recommendation; one from our vet, one from a family friend, and one from our employers. To me that sounds like too much to ask for. I mean seriously, a letter from my boss? Now, my boss would have no problem writing a letter for me, but that's an imposition I would have to put on her time that I just think it's ridiculous for a breeder to ask for.
The breeder keeps saying that she won't compromise on her requirnments, so if we have a problem with any of them, then basically 'have a nice day'. But at the same time when I asked for ofa certs she said she would show them to use when we met her but would not email us the info before hand (so we could search for them on the ofa website). It seems hypocritical that she isn't willing to meet my requirenment that only shows I am carefully screening a breeder, but she is asking for so much that I think she is overstepping bounds.
Am I wrong here? Or is it normal for breeders to ask for that much?
I would vote overstepping.. letter from boss and backyard pics..a little out there..
Someone mentioned credit check..thats a little far,IMO.
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I can understand a letter from vet or friend reference, but a letter from your boss? maybe she wants to see if you can afford the dog- wierd. Has she given you any references- of course she may only give you the good ones, but at least you can talk to others before you decide. Do you have to commit to anything before she shows you the ofa papers? Does she show her dogs? Not all breeders are good that are AKC or CKC(canadian).
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Good for the Breeder - always better to hear about asking too much than too little. No matter how much we try to educate buyers on what to look for, it is hard to get across the importance of just determining that the breeder cares about the dogs she is producing and wants to ensure they are going to one home, and one forever home only. I don't think it is too much to ask for references, although it is not the important thing or can replace interviewing you all and evaluating your home. She would be better served to be grilling you and your husband on training methods, diet to be fed, and where the dog will sleep to ensure it meets her standards.
You have received a lot of good input already as well on the AKC reference - please know that this means nothing. My Breed club has been working with the AKC on their classifieds and getting many breeders advertizing there thrown off - so much false information is posted there, including whether they are in a parent club - and it is not the AKC who verifies this info - it is up to the Breed club, so if they aren't doing it...anyone can be advertizing there.
Golden Pyrs gave great advice to contact Newf Rescue in the area and check out this breeder. No one knows best about breeders than the breed rescues and if they are getting any of that breeder's dogs...walk away. The breeder sounds good and diligent, but be sure by contacting Newf Rescue. The Club itself is a good place to start but also no guarantee as there are always bad breeders in every club, that the club cant get rid of once they're in. The Rescues however have no obligation and know best even when they are closely affiliated with the club overall.
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We had a breeder of Neo's in WA that required references and an employer was one. That was the first step and that was also the last step. She denied us because we are military and said that in the last 2 years she has pulled 5 of her pups from various rescues as far as CA because the owners were military and bought a small pup that grew into a large dog and didnt want to spare the expenses to move the dog with them or couldnt because they were moving overseas.
NOW, im glad things worked out the way that they did because if we had gotten that puppy then we wouldnt have Gunner now.
Go with your gut too, meet with her, see her dogs, the certs and thier enviroment and then you will know exactly what you need to do.
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I don't think the backyard pics are out of line, since I'd prefer that to a home check. I hate feeling under the microscope. But the reference from the employer is a bit much to me. That's a part of my life that I don't want my employer to be a part of. Employment could be proven with a simple pay stub, but I would even object to that.
When we were looking into puppies, we thought we found a breeder we liked until we read the contract and saw that it required us to give a certain supplement for the dog's entire life, and that she was a distributor of that supplement. That's not so much a TMI thing, but I did think it was going a bit too far.
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As I'm sure others have said...
Just because a breeder is listed on the AKC site or has "AKC dogs" does not in any, way, shape or form make them a good breeder....doe sn't even mean they are not a mill.
I think this breed has either had really bad experiences with people or is very protective. I have no issue with the vets name ect but I think the 3 letters is a bit much.
As for pics of your yard...when I did rescue if a home was to far for us to check it we would Google Earth the address to check for a fence.
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I think that the questions were okay for the breeder to ask...I don't think that the employer one though is something that she needs to have. We will be breeding our wolfhound this winter(hopefully, if her health checks are good) and I have a list that is fairly similar to that of that breeders. A breeder needs to know almost everything about the new potential owners. She is putting so much trust in what you tell her about yourselves. If she has never met you that is all that she has is the answers that you give her. Likely she has had problems in the past with people that have not met her expectations. Newfs are giants and come with a giant responsibility . Something not to take lightly. I think that you are on the right path, but if you are not comfortable with her, move on....there are great breeders out there and you can build wonderful friendships with them. We have been so lucky with our breeders, managed to find three great couples and have awesome friendships with them as well.
If you would like you could PM me and I could try to find you a reputable breeder in your area. I know a lot of people that have been breeding for quite some time and maybe they could help too. Maybe you want to come to Canada to check out the newfs here!!!
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I just found this list, maybe this will help too...
http://www.hanc.net/PDFs/Checklist.pdf
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Letters of reference maybe from your vet but the others are a bit much. As for pictures of your yard... how the heck is she gonna prove that is your yard?! I understand her concern those are her babies but lets be reasonable here...your boss!?! How the heck would most folks bosses know how we treat our dogs? I think she could tell tons just by visiting your home and seeing your dogs now. I agree with everyone else, sounds like she has been burned in the past. If she makes you uncomfortable find someone else.
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Are you getting a work visa? Perhaps a license to kill?
The breeder SHOULD ask questions. It's the right thing to do. Three letters of reference and urine sample? Too far.
The DNA samples, however, are just frightening. Look out for frame ups.
Seriously though, our local Humane Society asks questions like that. If you have a back yard. If you give medicine and are willing to spend thousands of dollars. If you sneezed on your dog at age 3. If you ever wrote for a communist-friendly dog magazine.
I hear horror stories of the place (I'm a journalist) from people who wanted to adopt a cat. One lady told me her mom went to adopt one. She was turned down because she was old (and thus wrinkly, something for a cat to grab onto or something weird like that), and didn't make enough on her pension.
So the lady went to the next town over and wound up with two cats and a sizable donation to the SPCA.
A good standard from a journalist's perspective: if anyone asks you a question that may come up in court during the murder trial of your wife whom you insist was done in by the one armed man, don't answer it.
Advice to pass on to your husband: After talking with a few breeders and meeting a few, the experience of going through a rescue was a wonderful and in fact, we're rescuing another. Also, it doesn't cost $14,300,383 for a freakin' breed that doesn't exist (see 'doodleplex').
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Two things
1: As stated before, being AKC certified means nothing, it just means that they spent the money to register their dog. It does not necessarily equal a reputable breeder. I can sort of unerstand 3 letters of reccomendation, kind of like ok you sound great but i want to make sure you're for real. Even with that mindset its pushing it a little. But the boss thing sounds a bit much. All that aside, the fact that it is an extremely one sided policy is not right. I see red flags. A reputable and responsible breeder should be willing to show you reeferences so that you know you're getting a quality pup. I would say move on. There are hundreds of other Newf breeders. I'm sure plenty of people here would be willing to personal message you with the info on their breeders.
2: Wow, you are just like me. I was born with a Saint in the house. Her name was Remy. Funny thing my Sis's name is Zoë lol. My beloved "2nd mommy" who was the sweeter than the sweetest thing immaginable, passed away when I was 6 due to heartworm complications. When it came time for another giant, what did we go for - NEWFIE!!! I think you are right not to get another saint. Partially because no matter how hard you try, you will compare her/him to Zoey, and no two dogs are alike, and the other reason is you get to add to your giant knowledge with a new breed and thats always fun. Good luck finding a pup! I'm sure who ever you choose will be perfect!
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A letter from your employer is over the edge. When my beloved Siberian Husky had pups, I pleaded for pictures of the pups *Wonder Years* I never lost contact with the six families. We actually had a one year birthday party at my house. Probably considered *over the edge* too!...but they were my grand :-* pups! I had my SH's for 14 & 16 years and I haven't been able to get another one.. (YET)