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BPO Medical Forum => Treatment & Preventative Meds => : Carolyn August 10, 2005, 12:27:30 PM

: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: Carolyn August 10, 2005, 12:27:30 PM
I finally got the article I mentioned a while back. Maine had a law for rabies shots to be given every 2 years, they just changed the law to 3 years. A yellow lab developed a mast cell tumor on the injection site from the booster. The owner did research about reactions which include allergies & cancer. She pushed for legislation requiring vets to disclose the benifits & risks of vaccines as well as intervals of immunity. A bill mandating written disclosure was introduced, but was tabled this year by Maines Agriculture, Consrvation & Forest Comittee, which opted instead to see if vets would educate clients on thier own... The American Animal Hospital Association recommended "core" vaccines such as parvo & distemper only every 3 years for adult dogs. Veterinary epidemiologist Ron Schultz of the university of Wisconsin-Madison goes further suggesting that a proper immunization in puppy-hood can last a lifetime for those same diseases.
The story ends with stateing the dog's tumor was removed & the owner sought out a homeopathic vet who prescribed an organic diet & other than Maines state mandated rabies every 3 years - no more vaccines.
So any comments about this would be greatly appreciated. Every spring my vet comes to my house does the 2 horses, 3 dogs & 2 cats, for what ever annual shots are needed  (I choke when I get my bill).
Carolyn
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 10, 2005, 12:45:30 PM
I am struggling with the vaccine issue as well....My new vet is a holistic vet and I just saw her last week and one of our conversations was about vaccines...  I have read so many things about how vaccines are really terrible for your dogs immune system and we have been vaccinating way to much.  According to my vet she sort of follows the middle of the road approach to vaccinating.  She starts the pups at 14weeks with the core....but gives them every 3-4 weeks.  Never any 4-in-1 or 7-in-1  and rabies not untill they are a bit older.  then after that you can opt to titer test your dog to show that there is a continued immunity.  As for the rabies...it is the worst on the dogs...here in nevada it is every 3 years by law.  I don't really want to do it at all.....
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: newflvr August 10, 2005, 01:06:45 PM
We lost our lovely Newf girl to immunizations.  She developed ITP (a mouthful: immunine medatiated thromocytopini a) three weeks after her yearly immunizations.  It was AWFUL!!!  She started bleeding from everyplace:  her ears, under skin, surface of her tongue.  We treated her with powerful steroids, blood transfusions and lost the battle after 5 months!  Now we titre:  check immunity levels every year.  If they are still high enough...NO immunizations!!!  If we do immunize, the pups only get ONE every month so their immune systems aren't overwhelmed.  My vet felt as badly as I did about it all and completely supports our decision NOT to immunize.  We also don't go to dog parks anymore so we don't have to worry about as many diseases carried by other dogs.
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: mastiffmommy August 10, 2005, 01:12:35 PM
After lots of research and reading plenty of studies, and talking to my vet here and the ones I used to go to in Sweden. I have pretty much made my mind up, that As for Galahad who is a puppy. He received his puppy shots, he got his rabies when he was 22 weeks old, they think giving it younger can be one of the reasons to bad reactions. He will also have his boosters as a one year old, only a one year rabies though. then when we get to year two, we will titer him and see what he needs booster on and not. After a lot of thinking and discussions with my vets and breeders that to me seemed to be a good middle way to go, since we still really dont know for a fact what happens. But after the puppy shots and the first years boosters, then there can be a risk of over vaccinating, so rather than just rutinely do it, see if they actually need it by titer them. They need two titers to cover it, and my vet charges about $ 60 per titer I think she said.

Marit
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: mastiffmommy August 10, 2005, 01:14:14 PM
Forgot..... they also say that the nutrition and supplements the dogs get have an impact on how well they deal with the stress the vaccinations produce. So a well thought through diet and supplements can probably help too.

Marit
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 10, 2005, 01:14:46 PM
oh god - that is terrible....  i don't want to do it...
do you give rabies?
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: mastiffmommy August 10, 2005, 01:20:27 PM
newflover..... . I am sooooo sorry to hear about your babie. I have read quite a few cases like that, and the ones where the body gets all deformed. Titer is a great way to go. And really I have no idea why vets dont do it as a rutine by now. They all know that over vaccination can lead to horrible things.

I also dont follow the three weeks inbetween vaccinations, I strech the whole regiment out much longer and dont give the combination vaccines. It gets a bit more expensive but when you read about a dog that lost its life due to it, well it is well spent money id say.

Marit
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 10, 2005, 01:35:34 PM
Marit - yeah I think the sounds about what my vet does... I absolutely won't vaccinate my poms anymore...  they have had enough.  But Willow --  I just hate to do it at all....My breeder has it in the contract that there will be no vaccines.  Willow is 3rd generation no vaccines.  But I am not sure I completely agree with that either...  Being a nurse I have seen kids come in with illnesses that should not have evr gotten if they had been vaccinated.... I may just go with the middle of the road way to go....

I read a good article somewhere on the web about one of the reasons the vets don't say about the affects of over vaccinating because it does create a regular decent cash flow for their offices.  The vaccines cost them in bulk less then 1.00 and they charge a whole lot more then that with the notion that you will be back for boosters....  That makes me very angry.  My vets (whom I have used for years and trust) never say a peep when I have brought my poms in - they just vacinate them and send me a card in the mail when it is time again.  I know they know because it is in all the literature.  I ave even read that they are reformatting what they teach in vet school also about vaccines.  Anyway, I now have a new vet who is holistic and i think she is great...
Timmie
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: Carolyn August 10, 2005, 02:05:04 PM
I brought the dogs to the vets office this year (split up my bill) & the new vet a young women, said that Chazzy didn't need the boosters because of her age (9) so that was what first got me thinking, why. Kiya is due in September for shots (that will be a whole year shes with me) so I'll discuss what were doing then.
Carolyn
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: shangrila August 10, 2005, 02:11:18 PM
I have pretty much made my mind up, that As for Galahad who is a puppy. He received his puppy shots, he got his rabies when he was 22 weeks old, they think giving it younger can be one of the reasons to bad reactions. He will also have his boosters as a one year old, only a one year rabies though. then when we get to year two, we will titer him and see what he needs booster on and not.

Can someone tell me more about this 'titer test'? Zoey got all of her puppy shots in september of last year, so she is due in a month to be re-immunized. But I am sort of afraid to get them after some of the stuff I have read. Does anyone have links to articles they can point me to about this?
 
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: newflvr August 10, 2005, 02:32:14 PM
At titer is a blood test where the antibodies are measured to see how much protection there is remaining after an immunization.  It's about the same price as immunizations.  My vet said that all vets have to be immunized against all the diseases that animals get and she's titred every year....and after 10 years is still at 100% for rabies.  I think most responsible vets are rethinking the whole immunization issue.  Cowboy was titred this year and he's at 60% protected....s o I have another year.  He's high risk for immunizations because he's epileptic so we'll skip every one we can.  Rabies is determined by law...so that's a tough one to skip.  His holistic vet said he'd try to go to bat to keep him from having even that but in California his license can be pulled if Cowboy bit someone.  Cowboy biting someone is laughable..... except during a full blown seizure!!!  Chester has had all his puppy shots and next year I will titre him as well and just take it year by year.

Thanks for your condolences on Lucille, my wonderful little Newfie girl.  Last year truly was ghastly....but now we have Chester.
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: Jessdryden August 10, 2005, 02:47:27 PM
OMG!  Thank you all so much for bringing this up!

I had no idea that routine immunizations had these problems.  We will definitely find out more (any suggestions?) and talk to our vets.  I would like to find out more about titreing too.

Thanks again!
Jessica and Sasha
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: newflvr August 10, 2005, 03:03:11 PM
 Here is just a brief summary of info. on auto immune diseases of which ITP is just one.
You can do a search on auto immune diseases in dogs and a huge amount of info. will come up.


[Dog Owner's Guide: Autoimmune diseases (www.canismajor .com/dog/autoimmn.html)] 
Home  Topics  Index  Newest  Bookstore  Reprints  Privacy  About 

Autoimmune Diseases
Immune system failures are a serious threat to your dog's health

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the immune system?
What implications do autoimmune diseases have for the breeder?
Autoimmune hemolytic anemia
Immune-mediated thrombocytopen ia
Autoimmune diseases of the skin
Systemic lupus erythematosis
Polyarthritis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the immune system?
The term "Autoimmune disease" is currently making the rounds among dog breeders and exhibitors and in the veterinary community. Diseases caused by a defective immune system are of particular concern among many purebred fanciers. (Some people use the abbreviation AID for (A)uto (I)mmune (D)isease. Due to possible confusion with AIDS, (acquired immune deficiency syndrome), a completely different disease, I have not used this acronym.)

The immune system is a marvelous defense network of white blood cells, antibodies, and other substances used to fight off infections and reject foreign proteins. It is a police force patrolling the body, designed to recognize "self" cells from "non-self" cells by markers found on the surface of every cell in the body. It is this ability that causes the body to reject skin grafts, blood transfusions, and organ transplants. Like anything else, the immune system can fail, either by not doing its job or by doing it too well.

Remember the "boy in the bubble?" Certain children (and Arabian foals) can be born with a severe combined immunodeficien cy (SCID). In addition, viruses such as FIV of cats, SIV of monkeys, and HIV of people all cause an acquired immunodeficien cy syndrome (AIDS) specific to that species. In all these diseases, the defective immune system fails to protect the body, leaving it vulnerable and open to attack by an opportunistic infection.

Autoimmune disease, on the other hand, is a different kind of immune system failure. In this situation, the ability of the immune system to recognize the "self" marker is lost, and it begins to attack and reject the body's own tissue as foreign. One specific tissue type such as red blood cells may be affected, or a generalized illness such as systemic lupus may result.

What causes the immune system to short circuit and start rejecting normal body tissue? Many theories exist, but the ultimate answer is "We don't know." Jean Dodds, a veterinarian studying immunology, feels that multivalent modified-live vaccines overstimulate the immune system. Others blame environmental pollutants or food preservatives such as ethoxyquin, an antioxidant found in most dog foods. There is strong evidence for a genetic factor in the development of autoimmune disease in many species. And some cases occur spontaneously, causing damage to kidneys, lungs, or thyroid gland.

: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 10, 2005, 03:22:15 PM
It is a very scarey thing - the issue whether to vaccinate or not....I always thought I have done the best for my dogs..feeding good kibble, taking them to the vet for vaccines, giving them plenty of love...but now the more I know about dog food companies and the whole vaccine issue - the guiltier I feel.  I have actually been putting my babies at risk because of shear ignorance....B ut not anylonger...I cut out the processed food and I am reducing the vaccines.....I wish we could get around the rabies thing.
Timmie

p.s. thank you newflvr for all the good info and again I am sorry about your newffie grl
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: newflvr August 10, 2005, 03:35:43 PM
Thanks!  I do appreciate all the good thoughts for Lucille.  She was very brave the whole time....and if you think YOU feel guilty!  My epileptic boy, Cowboy, gets only fresh cooked food just in case the grains in kibble could cause seizures.  Chester doesn't get to go to dog parks because I worry about diseases.  He only gets to play with dogs whose owners I know so I KNOW the dogs are healthy!  I think loving anything including (or especially) children! leads to guilt no matter what.  I could be the poster girl of GUILT!!!!

I think sites like this where we all exchange knowledge is the best thing we can do!
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 10, 2005, 03:50:11 PM
Newflvr - I am on a rawfeeding message board and there was someone who posted about his dog having seziures and he switched him to raw food...ended up off all medication and no seziures for quite awhile.  He said he lost his job and money was tight so started feeding kibble again within 2 weeks his dog started having seziures again.  He switched him back to raw and no seziures in a year....  pretty interesting stuff!!! 

I agree these message boards are the best....It is so nice to be able to share info.  there are some very informative people here at BPO
 You are doing and have done the best you could do I am sure...and with more knowledge we all grow stronger in taking care of our sweet furbabies.... 
Timmie
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: newflvr August 10, 2005, 04:27:37 PM
I've heard the same things about kibble...inter esting that it worked SO well for that guys dog!  Cowboy has gone from cluster seizing every couple of weeks (sometimes everyday!!! :() to only one in the last 4 1/2 months!  Of course he's on tons of meds as well, but I figure whatever works...and at this point, it's working!

I'd rather put money in food instead of vet bills!!!!
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 10, 2005, 04:43:27 PM
I agree - less money to vets and more on nutrition.  I am still pretty new to the raw feeding thing...just getting it organized so that it is not time consuming is what I am working on now...  But my dogs love it.  My male pom thinks he has died and gone to heaven.  Willow was weaned to raw from my breeder so she is fine with it....  Actually it has been kind of fun and now my dogs eat better then I or my kids do - lol

My bestfriend has a yellow lab - sweet boy - that has a nasty tumor wrapped around his kidney.  Also a ton of other problems.  She started using the premade raw diet and he loves it and acts like he is feeling better.  The cancer is terminal but at least if it makes him feel better then it is worth it.  My vet said it is probably nutrition related.  Cancer grows on Carbs which is predominately processed foods.  I guess there is a lot of literature to suggest processed foods for dogs causing quite a bit of health problems.  Anyway if you haven't read Billinghurts books - you should he is really great about nutrition and supplements. And it is easy to read.
Timmie
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: newflvr August 10, 2005, 05:41:49 PM
I read a lot about raw foods and actually had Lucille and Cowboy on it.  They both LOVED it!  The emergency room doc that took care of both of them (at one point they were in two different hospitals at the same time....both with life threatening emergencies... .awful, awful week!!!) hated it.  She's the one who convinced me it's not for dogs with serious health issues.  The bacteria that can be controlled by a healthy dog can overwhelm a dog who isn't completely healthy.  They both had to be on antibiotics to control it while being treated for their other problems.  She also was worried about the raw bones causing blockages....s o I give them raw beef marrow bones frozen!  We are sort of walking a middle ground by cooking the raw food (with out bone) and freezing the bones.  As I said, it may not be perfect, but it's working for the time being!
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 10, 2005, 06:54:27 PM
as long as it is working and they are both getting healthier is all that matters...  I s there any supplements to help strengthen their immune system....  Vit C is awesome for stress...I think kelp is good too...although with dogs on lots of meds you never quite know what will react....I was so happy to find this holistic vet...I think she is great and will also use traditional medicine as well.  She doesn't do surgerys though..we have a 2nd vet for that type of stuff.
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: sarnewfie August 10, 2005, 07:36:03 PM
hi everyone, i have done this for the last three years
dist parvo boosters, given every three years, a month or two after the three year rabies.
my pups are no going in at eight weeks instead of six for their first sh0t as new evidance shows they carry immunity from mommy up to 12 weeks.
i think 8 weeks is a good compromise.
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: newflvr August 11, 2005, 11:33:19 AM
I took Cowboy to a holistic vet for acupuncture to try to help stablize his rear end and got tons of good info from him about foods, etc.  Sadly, the acupuncture didn't help at all but we are now in the process of reducing his anti-seizure meds a bit to see if that will help.  It was funny though to see him TOTALLY relax with all those needles projecting out all over him.....litera lly from the tip of his nose to his back end!  He'd just fall asleep with his head in my arms!!!
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 11, 2005, 11:35:49 AM
Wow - that is cool...my vet does acupuncture also.  Have never seen it used on animals before.  Hope the decreasing meds works....
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: Nina August 11, 2005, 12:07:06 PM
WOW thanks for all the great info! I remember my vet mentioning to me about vaccines being linked to cancer. And when I metioned to her that my cat is only an indoor cat , she cut out many of the vaccines that are normally given, because of the cancer risk.  She said to me why give somthing that is not needed.


Nina
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: mastiffmommy August 11, 2005, 12:25:48 PM
I dont want to make anyone more upset than they already are, BUT this is such an important issue. The link here has real horrible pics of vaccination reactions in danes, who at first were misdiagnosed. There is also on the site the link comes from, several good tips of feeding, supplements and vaccination articles.

http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/examples_of_vaccine_reactions_in_great_danes.htm

Marit
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: Nina August 11, 2005, 12:50:58 PM
Wow I never know how bad it could be!. Dilbert had a reaction to his last shot that had rabies in it. He developed a small lump on his leg. We took him to the vert right away, he was fine though and the lump went away. Thank goodness.
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 11, 2005, 01:30:41 PM
It is so important to really do your homework where vaccines are concerned.... I really just dont want to give any at all to my pup...just scares me...
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: mastiffmommy August 11, 2005, 04:33:00 PM
It is scary, and something that makes you wonder is. WHY, why do we have problems like this today. Say 30 years ago, these problems were not at all as obvious as now. I wonder if we slowly but surly have made our dogs react in this way, by vaccinating more and more and also adding certain protein to the vaccines when manufactured, that seems to have a bad impact on the immune system.

Marit
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: mixedupdog August 13, 2005, 02:27:35 PM
Several years ago I had a 9 year old Dane who hadn't had any shots in 2 1/2 years, I was going to do them all when her rabies came due. I worked at a shelter then, and brought home the most beautiful little brindle Dane pup you ever saw. She and the pup were together for two days when the pup developed a horrible case of the fast-acting parvo, and died within 24 hours.
I was so worried about the older dog being exposed, but the best advice/explanation I got was from a vet who told me that adult dogs who were vaccinated as pups and then go lots of places (my dog went everywhere except work) are the least at risk, and probably don't need anymore shots, the reason being that they are probably exposed to distemper and parvo at least once a month in their travels, and that exposure acts just like the shot does, keeps the antibody levels up.
She never did get sick at all, even though she was licking and playing with the pup right up until the time it got sick.
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: newflvr August 13, 2005, 04:17:13 PM
How sad!!!!  I'm so sorry about the puppy!!!  And it makes sense to expose them to keep up the immunity!

Again, condolences about the puppy!!!!
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 14, 2005, 01:33:47 AM
I am sorry about the puppy...too bad...  My vet also said the nutrition has a lot to do with their immunity..Barf or raw fed dogs seem to do much better with illnesses or any assault to their immune system....
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: Anky August 14, 2005, 03:07:03 PM
Araby is VERY sensitive to Vaccines.  I think she's gotten a reaction to everything we've ever given her.  Because of this I want to Titer my dogs.  Well the vet that we're going to right now (Trust me I'm looking at other Vets.  Matt likes this one because it's "Exclusive".  Forget that it's 45 minutes from the house, over priced ($75 for a worming!?!?!?!?!) and the vets are all nasty) anyways the vet we're going to now tells me that Titers are ILLEGAL!!!!!!  She's full of BS, but she won't do it and she says she's going to report us to animal control if we don't get the dogs Vacc'd. 

Araby isn't due for anything (According to me) but they want to vacc her for Lyme (Which she got from the vac) Bordtella (Which she got from the Vac) Lepto (Which I had them give to her in a single shot and she had to stay at the vets overnight because she was puking), Parvo (She's 3 why does she need a shot against a puppy disease?) and Distemper.  Hobo's only a year, so he'll be getting his 3 year Rabies and that's all I want him to have, but they want him to have boosters then too.

If you Google "Vaccinosis" you'll come up with tons of sites.

Ang
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: newflvr August 14, 2005, 04:00:20 PM
Your vet is full of poop.....total ly agree with you !!!!  GREAT idea to change vets!  I'd LOVE to go nose to nose with her on this....titers ILLEGAL????  You've got to be kidding!!!  Yeah, for Rabies, it probably is!  but not for all the other stuff!  SHEESH!!!!  Have Matt spend some time on this site and he'll get educated!  Every vet that we've worked with has been kind, understanding, gentle and puts the animal's well-being first...or we don't go back!!!!

I had a vet once who worked with my first Newf who had a foxtail in his paw and the vet's hands shook so badly and he was sweating so much, I realized he was afraid of big dogs!  We  found someone who LOVES the giants!  Keep looking, you'll find a good one!!!!
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: brigid67 August 14, 2005, 09:17:16 PM
oh that is a bad bad vet.....  Switch vets fast....run... .  Titers are great.  My vet said that she will write a letter and titer for rabies if there is any small reaction to the rabies vacc...She does have to tell me that the law says I have to get the rabies every 3 years but if I follow it or not is my business....
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: Anky August 15, 2005, 11:51:36 AM
I found a great vet, they did the ER work on Sanity when he had his allergic reaction.  It's still far away for me right now (I'm staying with my grandparents because of their health), but only 5-10 minutes away from our house in the city.  Now I've just got to convince Matt to go over there.  The thing is, he'll dwell on minor good things that happen, and ignore the HUGE bad things.  Just gonna take a bit to convince
: Re: Article in Newsday about "core" vaccines
: newflvr August 15, 2005, 03:01:38 PM
That's why we have the ability to nag....gently but consistantly!  It just gets easier to go along with what we want than continue to dig one's heels in over something as important as a vet decision.  You could go for the middle ground....just want a "second opinion".  The more compassionate vet would probably win him over!