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Mastiffs => Neapolitan Mastiff Discussions & Pictures => : smohr November 02, 2005, 08:20:00 PM

: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: smohr November 02, 2005, 08:20:00 PM
Well, I am informing all of you who have kept up with the antics of Petra that I was advised by her vet(s) who have to muzzle her every time she comes in and have to have 2 vets and 2-3 assistants struggle with a nearly 6 month old puppy, by an attorney in our church, the neighbor looking forward to suing me because Petra growls and barks at him that unless I find another alternative or someone who is bigger and badder than me that I will most likely have to euthanize Petra.

I had to muzzle her, lie down on her and use a prong collar just to trim her nails.  I took her to her first puppy class and was asked to leave when she began advancing on some much smaller and sweeter puppies with teeth bared, hair raised and the most God-awful growling I'd ever heard.  I had to put the prong collar on her to get her out of the place.

She has been fine as long as she is alone with me.  Even after cutting nails, she returned to normal and licked my face.  She follows commands so well when we are walking and doesn't bother w/other dogs and lets people pet her and she plays with the grandkids just fine.  But if there is a lot of activity going on and a lot of people running in and out, she starts this biting routine that soon turns into her trying to pull someone to the ground!

I don't understand it.  She cuddles with me and is so lovable.  When we are alone, she is a different dog.  Then last week I heard about the pitbull attack and the story behind the dog sounded like Petra.  I can't have her turning on the kids, me or a neighbor if she should get loose.

I have cried the past few days thinking I can come up with a solution.  I just haven't found that ray of hope...God help me if I miss something and she could have been saved. 

Should I turn her over to a rescue?  The other rescue I got her from hasn't returned my e-mails, so I beginning to wonder about how much they worked w/or tried to find out what she was like.

I've lost one "baby" this year and Petra already is part of my life (even if she is Linda Blair) and I just don't want to make the wrong decision. 
If she was your dog...what would your options be?  I am desparate here. 

I will NOT be angry.  I'm just searching for for your thoughts and asking for your prayers.

: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: Anky November 02, 2005, 08:24:34 PM
Honey,

I am so sorry :'(  I'm even sorrier to say that I highly doubt a rescue will take Petra in.  I think your best bet is to call some remedial dog trainers from all over the country.  Tell them they are her last hope.  Maybe they will take her in and train her and rehome her, or keep her themselves.  Quite a few of my trainer friends ended up with their best dogs this way.  I hope you find out something to do.  I really do.

Ang
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: dober_gurl November 02, 2005, 08:32:35 PM
I know this is a long shot but here is Cesar Millian's e-mail address. Why don't you ask him for help. CesarMillan@mphent.com

edit: also his number is (323) 235-3431
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: Stacey November 02, 2005, 08:34:59 PM
 :'(
I am truly sorry that you are going through this especially because we all know how much you love Petra just through all of your efforts to help her.  IMHO, I just think that you have done everything that you can do, and there is probably nothing or no one that can rehabilitate her.  It is just so hard because you don't know what Petra went through or was exposed to before getting to the rescue, but I imagine it has a lot to do with the problems you are having with her.  I agree that it is just to risky and dangerous to have a dog with her Jeckyl and Hyde tendencies around other people and especially children, she just seems too unpredictable.  My thoughts and prayers are with you and Petra, and you just need to do what you feel is best for everyone involved.
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: VdogLover November 02, 2005, 09:08:49 PM
I sense that you already know what you feel is the right thing to do. If you are still having doubts I suggest you do not call a dog trainer but an animal behaviorist instead.
 
Please keep in mind even if you work with a behaviorist who feels they can teach you ways to manage her aggressive nature it will be just that "managed" not cured. You will invest alot of emotions, time, and money,  into a dog who you can never really trust.
 
Also I think you need to look at the legal side if she was to bite down the road. Having already shown past aggression you will be held as knowing you owned a vicious dog. To me its just not worth financial risks.

Rehoming her should not be an option. You can not place out a dog with this type of history. How will you feel if she is rehomed and then bites a child or the new owner?
 
I'm sorry you are being put through this type of decision it is never an easy one.....
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: sobe November 02, 2005, 09:20:51 PM
this is a tough one for sure.  I think what it comes down to is the quality of Petra's life. If she always has to be muzzled, leashed, wear a prong collar , can't socialize, can't be trusted around anyone, has an owner who is forever on guard something might happen ( dogs can sense that ) , then I would do the following if she was my dog.
I would call these people :
 
United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club
  Secretary : Sue Luedemann
  Address: 4050 ZOO LN, BRENHAM, TX , 77833-8651 
  Website: www.neapolitan .org
  Email: BIGFOOT@BlueBon.net
  Club Type: Specialty 

I would explain the complete situation and ask if they have any honest advise, or a place to go for Petra.
If so, then you might have a solution ( which is what I hope for you )

If they say no, then I would have Petra put down, as hard as that is going to be for you. Unless she gets help, Petra is not going to have a life you'd want her to have and it's going to be nothing but struggles and stresses. That is not fair to either one of you.

My heart goes out to you , this has to be one of the hardest things to have to go through.

Btw, has she been checked for a brain tumor?


: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: GR8DAME November 02, 2005, 10:46:51 PM
I have no advise for you, my dear. This is a heartbreaking decision, that only you and your family can make. But once again, however it turns out, you have my support and prayers for you and Petra.
Stella
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: doglover November 02, 2005, 11:32:42 PM
You are still in my prayers. I know you are going through a very difficult time. We support you no matter what you decide.  :'( :'(
Jenn
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: Good Hope November 03, 2005, 12:45:33 AM
Man Smohr, you have tried so hard... but you know Petra is an attack waiting to happen at this point. She has made leaps and bounds with you, but do you honestly think you will be able to train her to trust others or to trust you enough to stop her behavior when you say no? If the answer is no, you know what you have to do,but first be certain to rule out medical. If there are no medical issues and you are not certain, call a behaviorist. Have them come to your home to evaluate and give you his/her opinion. I do not see another option here. There are so many dogs that need someone like you, so dedicated, loving, and willing to invest time in training. If Petra cannot be trained to be an obedient and SAFE dog, there will be another dog in your life, many if you are willing.

I hate that this has happened. :'( But I do believe that everything happens for a reason... even though not evident now, someday you will see how perhaps Petra has taught you enough to save 10+ other dogs.

You will be our prayers,
Deena
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: brigid67 November 03, 2005, 12:59:15 AM
Wow - this is to bad.  Maybe get a really good trainer to see for a last attempt.  I am so sorry
Timmie
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: Kermit November 03, 2005, 01:22:43 AM
I feel your pain.  :'(
I have had to make the same decision in my past, about 6 years ago. I had a lab/rottie mix who weighed 105 lbs and wanted to eat children. He was great with everyone else and other dogs and even cats. But he had it out for kids. Given his size, he was potentially very dangerous. My veterinarian said this: "you can never train it out of them." 

I made the decision to have my dog euthanized. I always wonder if there was something else I could have done. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. But I personally couldn't live with the fear of him hurting someone. For me, I felt like I had a responsibilty to my community to not keep a dangerous animal. I knew that if I gave him to someone else, he was still the same dog and then it would just be someone else's problem. I will never feel comfortable about what had to happen, I think about him all the time. But the way I try to look at it is that his soul could come back as a different dog and he could have another chance that way.

It is such a hard place to be.

Whatever decision you make it will be alright. You do what you need to do. Stay strong, breathe deep.
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: suzanne November 03, 2005, 03:55:57 AM
I'm so sorry you are having such a sad and difficult time.  I went through a somewhat similar problem a year ago.  Ripley, the litermate of my nearly 6-year-old Pyr, Sophia, bite me 3 times...once quite badly..in a 3-week period.  I worked with Patricia McConnell, a nationally known animal behaviorist (author of "The Other End of the Leash") as well as with a local behaviorist.  Additionally,  my vet put him on Prozac, in case there was some kind of imbalance. This went on for over 2 months,...with me fearing each day that he might attack someone else.  He had always been "Mommy's boy".  He was Puppy #5 from the one litter I had (under the guidance of a long-time Pyr breeder), and we bonded from day 1.  Of course, we all speculated that he might have a brain tumor, but decided not to do a CAT scan as after spending the approx. $1,300.00, to check it out...if he did have one, there really weren't any practical options.  Believe Me....money never comes into play with my dogs if $$$ can fix the problem.  On top of the health ins. I have carried on all my dogs for the past 20 years, I have willingly spent thousands of dollars to give them the best possible quality of life.  Then one morning, I realized that there was a look in his eye that fightened me.  Plus his behavior was a little "off".  But, as someone who always wants to give her beloved pets every possible chance, before I made the "final decision", I called a long-time, highly respected Pyr breeder to get her opinion.  She guided me to the choice I knew was necessary, and my wonderful vet came over to my house that evening to perform the sad task.  (Of course, like all of my deceased beloved dogs, he was creamated and his ashes have a place of honor in my bedroom.)  Like someone else mentioned  in a previous response, one always must consider the quality of life possible for dogs who have physical or behavioral problems.  And, of course, risk to self, and others must factor in.  Dogs know yesterday and today, they do not know tomorrow, and...a peaceful death by euthansea  is sometimes the kindest and most loving thing we can do for them.  My thoughts and best wishes are with you and Petra.
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: greek4 November 03, 2005, 10:26:21 AM
I have always said with my dogs that if they ever bite someone that has not provoked and I in a manner that the dog actually felt in danger of bodily harm that I would put them to sleep.  But since I have never been faced with that issue I dont' know how it feels.  I think you do know what needs to be done to keep you and your family safe legally and physically.  Petra is probably just as miserable as you are when she gets into her fits.  I always think of how I feel when I get unreasonable and think the dog must be feeling 10 times worse to be so unreasonable. 
Good luck and don't worry no one will think less of you for doing what needs to be done. 

You have tried harder than anyone I have ever heard of to turn Petra around. :'(
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: Gypsy Jazmine November 03, 2005, 10:40:05 AM
How very hard for you!...I am so very sorry that you are & Petra are going through this. :'( I would try a behaivorolist (not a trainer) as a last ditch effort if everything medical has been ruled out...I often think sadly that some dogs just come with baggage too heavy for their shoulders to carry...& too massive for their little souls to contain...No matter what your descision please know that I am in the same corner with you & Petra....You've tried so long & hard with her...B.t.w., did you e-mail Cesar Milan?
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: Rachel November 03, 2005, 10:40:13 AM
I just wanted to say that I agree with everything that was said above and that my thoughts are with you during this tough time.
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: declanssexymama November 03, 2005, 10:54:03 AM
I am so sorry that you even have to make this decision.  It is so very difficult to do.  In my opinion, you would be doing the right thing by humanely euthanising her.  A dog that cannot be trusted cannot live a happy, normal life with their human.  I know you only want what is best for her.  My heart goes out to you right now.  I'm so sorry.
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: newflvr November 03, 2005, 11:42:14 AM
Oh, smohr, if I could put my arms around you and consol you, I would!  You phrased it exactly right....gut wrenching!!!  I've told you our experience with "Teddy" the Akita who we could never trust and we had him live on a lunge line in the back of the house.  Was it the right thing to do?  Of course not!  But I didn't have the courage to look the problem honestly in the face, as you are doing.  Only you can make the decision and we will all back you no matter what! 
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: WhiteShepherdDog November 03, 2005, 11:45:31 AM
I am so sorry for your pain.
Unfortunately, you can't do much to change the genetics of the dog and the early life of it with its mother and that is the fault of the breeder!
If it is behavioral though, a canine behaviorist can help.
First you need to find a vet who has experience with dogs with issues to find out if there is a medical/genetic cause for problems.
The treatment that a behaviorist recommends will be costly ---- mostly it will be teaching you how to intervene and eliminate the dogs reactiveness. It will take hours of your time and money, too.
It is not hopeless though...like Cesar Milan shows - it is training the handler.....
teaching you how to handle the dog until it learns what is expected.
I have a dog I crate when there is too much happening in the house....why subject it to something that stresses it?
You can see if this behaviorist can suggest anyone in your area.
http://www.lmccb.com/index.htm
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: Stephanie November 03, 2005, 12:11:15 PM
Smohr,
I am so sorry you have to face this decision. It's not your fault, you have tried so hard to help her.

I think it is sad she has ended up this way. Whoever had her before you must have "hurt" her pretty bad. Too many people just don't understand neos. They are not mean and agressive dogs at all. They are very strong physically but mentally they are so very sensitive. It doesn't take much at all to "hurt" their feelings. Then they become untrusting and scared which leads to their agression.

IMO, I think Petra is just very scared and this is why she is agressive. She has finally come to trust you, but still doesn't trust anyone else and it has taken a lot to even get this far and a long time.

I really don't know if she can be turned around completly since I have never dealt with this before personally. I think maybe she could with a behaviorist but it would probably take a long time and a lot of work.
My heart goes out to you and Petra.
Steph
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: ZooCrew November 03, 2005, 03:14:32 PM
I'm sorry to hear that you may have to make the final decision on Petra.  We all know how hard you have been working with her.  Some things are just beyond our control, and no one would think less of you if you did need to put her down.  This truly is a gut wrenching decision and know that we are behind you no matter what you decide.
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: smohr November 03, 2005, 05:01:37 PM
B.t.w., did you e-mail Cesar Milan?

I e-mailed him and the other place one of you advised and Mr. Milan is "busy" and the other hasn't replied. 

I contacted a "severe-behavior modifier" Carole Hazel and am waiting on a reply.  She was advertised in a local "Bulletin Board" but I didn't see many big dogs she has worked with in her dog success stories on her website.  Have any of you heard of her?

This is my last hope as I have talked to and taken Petra to other behaviorists who observed and advised, delicately, not to keep her or out right told me to euth her. 

I sat out on the deck in the sun w/her today and she put her head on my lap, looking into my eyes and I just couldn't help but cry.  I petted and talked with her while she licked my fingers.  If I could just have her all to myself and no one around, no distractions or confusion, she MAY be ok.  One of the behaviorist who saw her said she may just have some mental problems inherited or from the previous abuse.   :'(
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: Anakalia November 03, 2005, 05:14:30 PM
Oh no!!  This is heartbreaking for me, so I can't imagine how your feeling.  I had to put my cat to sleep for behavioral purposes and it's a very hard thing to do.  Just know that whatever you decide we are here to support you in your decisions.

Andi
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: VdogLover November 03, 2005, 05:33:00 PM
Heres a list of Certified Dog Behavior Consultants. I'm not sure if the woman you spoke of is on here or not...there should be some listed for your location.
http://www.iaabc.org/consultant_locator_dogs.htm
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: Senghe November 03, 2005, 05:34:57 PM


Should I turn her over to a rescue?


I'm so sorry to hear that you may have to make such a heart wrenching decision with Petra. Whatever you do, please don't turn her in to another rescue society. It sounds like the poor girl has been through enough without the mental anguish of being abandoned again by the only person she trusts and either end up being passed on to somebody else who can't cope and biting somebody or euthanized alone by strangers at the rescue.  Psychological damage is much harder on the owner and the dog than a physical problem. It would be hard enough if she had cancer and was obviously sick, but contemplatimg putting a perfectly healthy young dog to sleep is horrible.

My heart goes out to you both, but I'm sure you'll take responsibility for Petra. A Neo is too big a dog to be unsure about and if she did bite, she could theorteically kill somebody. Our dogs rely on us to make decisions for their best interests and tragically, sometimes it's the ultimate decision.
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: Good Hope November 03, 2005, 05:52:54 PM
Well, if the behaviorists don't see any hope in your ability to manage her, you really don't have many options.

Since she is fine with you, you could take her somewhere and become a hermit.  Maine is a nice place, and there is plenty of semi-wilderness for you to live.   :D

However, that is probably not an option.  :-\  This really is a terrible decision.  Euthanizing her seems to be necessary, since even behaviorists have recommended it.    :(  Passing poor Petra on to someone else's problem doesn't seem like a good idea, unless you can find a behaviorist to take her.  They would have enough knowledge to keep anyone from getting hurt, but others might not know what they are getting into with a large and aggressive dog.

It is sad to put an animal down, but that is better than seeing her attack someone.  Now, THAT would be truly heart-breaking.

Sofia
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: smohr November 03, 2005, 09:28:27 PM
The last and I mean last behaviorist is coming to my home Tuesday to observe and advise about Petra.  She asked if I would be able to accept her advice if it was euth and I said yes. 

It's strange.  Petra has been acting so great the past few days.  Maybe she senses something...  :'(
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: shangrila November 03, 2005, 10:37:41 PM
I just want to tell you that my heart breaks for you.  :'(

Whatever happens, I hope you know that BPO will be here to support you.
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: Icerotti November 03, 2005, 10:56:15 PM
 It has to be a horrible decision to make. I know that you have put much time and effort into Petra. You have explored/ tried many options with your situation. You know in your heart that you have explored all avenues to be taken. You gave her all you could and she knows that.
No matter what your decision is I support you.
My heart goes out to you at such a difficult time.
Michelle
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: dohertyswissy November 04, 2005, 01:01:05 AM
I simply cannot imagine the pain you are going through at this time.  Rest assured that you have gone above and beyond what the average person would do to rehabilitate Petra...the true mark of a responsible and caring furkid parent.

I will be thinking of you.  My heart goes out to you and Petra.  I know that, in the end, you will make the right decision for Petra.

BPO is here to support you in whatever way you need us.

Hugs,
Heather
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: babs2Sully November 04, 2005, 09:33:12 AM
this is so sad for you and Petra..
I can understand having been there a few years ago with a part lab pup we got from the ASPCA.  Elijah was my daughter's dog and he lived with her in the city.  We had seen some aggressive behaviors toward men. When my son carried his lacrosse stick into the house over his head, Elijah went after him. So, we figured abuse and beatings had been part of Elijah's life.  We were very careful that he not run free ever. and worked diligently on his training and behaviors.
But then he attacked a young man on the streets while being walked on his lead and we knew that nothing we could do could help with him.
Very simply there is nothing you have done to cause Petra to act that way, but those early months something was wrong with how he was treated or how his owners interacted with Petra.
I hope this behaviorist has an answer for you that is not what appears to be the obvious..
Please, I'm interested to hear how things go.
Hugs
Babs
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: Heighway November 04, 2005, 09:37:37 AM
I think you have done every thing possible to help Petra.  Please add my thoughts and prayers to this long list of BPO friends.
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: Saintgirl November 04, 2005, 10:10:55 AM
I am so sorry that you are going through all of this. I can't even imagine the heartbreak you must be going through. I hope that this behaviorist will help you comfortably arrive at a decision that will work for the both of you. My thoughts are with you.
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: lifeisgood76 November 18, 2005, 11:19:38 AM
I am in neorescue, please send me an email and i will call you.
Laurie
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: 4myneo November 25, 2005, 07:13:11 PM
I am a USNMC rescue volunteer.  Unfortuately, some neo's do not do very well being rehomed.  Was she found in a shelter?  That seems to be the biggest issue with most of the rescue neo's.  When they get thrown into a shelter situation it really changes their personality.  These are dogs that LIVE for their 'people.'  Some will literally lie down and die. 

Unfortunately, USNMC Rescue cannot under any circumstance, take a dog that has shown any aggression.  The liability is too high.  We don't deal with cockers!!  These are dogs that can seriously injure, or kill a human.  Just in sheer size and weight.  Not to mention the determination. 

My suggestion, and the suggestion of any of our volunteers would be what you are dreading.  Let her go in your arms.  :'(

Nicole Smith
USNMC Member
USNMC VIP Club
USNMC Rescue Volunteer
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: angelsmama November 25, 2005, 07:21:28 PM
my mom is a master herbalist,  she recommends trying petra on valerian root, and if not that, go to an herb store and get st johns wort tincture and put one dropper in her food or water. itd be worth trying before letting petra go.
: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: Good Hope November 25, 2005, 07:30:32 PM
Actually, I think things have turned around somewhat for Petra, although I don't think we have heard from her owner in the last two and a half weeks or so.  To my knowledge, her last post was on this thread (http://www.bigpawsonly.com/index.php/topic,5479.msg70036.html#msg70036).

I hope she has continued to improve since that time.

Sofia

: Re: HEART-WRENCHING DECISION
: angelsmama November 25, 2005, 07:32:03 PM
as do i.. petras such a beautiful baby, i hate hearing things like that.