Big Paws Only Dog Forums
BPO Food Forum => Food Discussion & Information => : Lyn November 30, 2005, 10:07:30 AM
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Poor Bubba. He was doing so well on the DVP Potato & Duck.. but after the 3rd bag he started getting loose poop and gassy again. :( It didn't help his itching anyway. Turns out he has a flea bite allergy. One bite and he goes crazy. :( Plus the DVP is expensive.. :-\ He was going through a 30lb bag every 3 weeks.. and at $75 canadian a bag it was adding up.
So I decided to try the Solid Gold Hundenflocken. It's a lamb and rice formula. So far so good, but I'm still in the process of switching him over. I'm crossing my fingers though that this is the LAST food switch.
I've tried everything from grocery store brands to super premium. Just hoping I'd find the food he would do best on. No luck... The list so far totals in order, Purina one (Adult) Pro plan (Large breed puppy) Eukanuba (large breed puppy) Solid Gold Wolfcub (large breed puppy) Canidae (All life stages) Natural Balance (Potato & Duck) and now Solid Gold (Adult, Hundenflocken)
The store I buy all my pet food from also stocks a premixed frozen raw diet (Chicken, lamb or turkey) But it's crazy expensive.. 12 pounds cost $42 canadian. :o I don't think I could afford to feed Bubba that. But if it comes down to it I may look into it a little bit more. 12 pounds doesn't seem like alot of food.. but I have no idea how much he'd need, so it's possible it could equal itself out. :-\
I also have a question about supplements and vitamins... Bubba has clicking hips. My vet doesn't think it's HD but wants x-rays taken when he's about 18 months to be sure. In the meantime I'd like to try some supplements. But which ones should I buy? My local drugstore has 3 isles of just vitamins and supplements. Any help on which ones and dosages would be awesome.
Thanks ;D
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I use Vitamic C and that is it...I feel that if your dog needs a million supplements then the animal isnt healthy to begin with. You may want to be careful with lots of supplements because you really dont know what exactly is bothering your dog digestive wise
For allergeries you can try some benedryl 1mg per pound it may help with the flea bites
Also, I know some people are freaked out by raw but have you considered trying a raw diet? meat, bones & organ meat. Then you know exactly what your dog is eating and what he may be allergic too...If you go through a bunch of different meats, then you know it is a grain that is bothering him. I feed both my dogs raw and am very very happy with it
Just some food for thought
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Vitamin C is good. I would also consider using glucosamine.
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I second the glucosamine. It will help support his cartilage development.
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the solid gold food should already have plenty of glucosamine, no?solid gold also has ascorbic acid in most - if not all - of their foods. ascorbic acid == Vit C so...
we found out cody had massive flea allergies after trying to switch food in vain for 2 months as well :( :( :( now we're religious about frontline come spring thru fall...
edit: (just re-read mordanna.com; no it doesn't seem to have glucosamine nor chondroitin)
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the solid gold food should already have plenty of glucosamine, no?solid gold also has ascorbic acid in most - if not all - of their foods. ascorbic acid == Vit C so...
we found out cody had massive flea allergies after trying to switch food in vain for 2 months as well :( :( :( now we're religious about frontline come spring thru fall...
edit:Â (just re-read mordanna.com; no it doesn't seem to have glucosamine nor chondroitin)
From the Solid Gold website...
Here is Hund-n-Flocken...
Product Description
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Dry food formula made with Lamb, Millet, Amaranth, Barley and Brown Rice. Ideal for moderately active adult dogs, to maintain total health.
Protein, Min 22%
Fat, Min 10%
Fiber, Max 4%
Moisture, Max 10%
Calories per cup, 367
Ingredients
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Lamb | Lamb Meal | Millet | Brown Rice | Cracked Pearled Barley | Oatmeal | Rice Bran | Menhaden Fish Meal | Canola Oil | Flax Meal | Amaranth | Blueberries | Dried Chicory Root | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Sodium Selenite | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |
Here is Wolf King (their large breed food)...
Product Description
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Large Breed Adult Dog Food
Protein, Min 22%
Fat, Min 9%
Fiber, Max 4%
Moisture, Max 10%
Calories per cup, 364
Ingredients
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Bison | Salmon Meal | Brown Rice | Millet | Cracked Pearled Barley | Oatmeal | Rice Bran | Canola Oil | Flaxseed Oil | Garlic | Amaranth | Blueberries | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Taurine | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Selenomethioni ne | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |
Our guys are currently on the Wolf King, but we supplement occasionally with other brands as well, for variety... I am always on the lookout for the "best" food, but I think it really comes down to what is best for your individual dog...
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Also a supplement question..
The supplements I use for my Great Danes (which I am assuming would be the same for a Saint) are as follows: (Taken from www.greatdanel ady.com)
Nzymes Granules
Nzymes 4 in 1 (probiotics ... includes Vitamin C)
Flexicose (the most digestible Joint Supplement ... it's liquid ... on the market)
You can find these products on their websites
www.nzymes.com
www.flexicose. com
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Wow thanks all. ;D
Ok so Glucosamine HCI 'not Sulphate' and Vitamin C for sure. What about MSM and Chondroitin?
My vet recommended putting the advantage drops on Bubba every 3 weeks instead of every 4. It may be killing the fleas, but they have to bite him first before they die. So Bubba is still as itchy as ever. :( I need to find something that kills them on contact. The damn fleas seem to be bouncing back and forth between my cats and Bubba even though I treat them all with advantage. It's getting frustrating. My the time I get rid of them all it will be spring and they will all be back again. UGH!
Babs, I'm going to look into that pre-mixed raw diet.. I can't find it online.. doesn't help I can't remember the name. But it looks like rabbit pellets. Maybe someone will know which one I'm talking about. I checked all the Canadian raw suppliers and it's none of those. Must be a US company.
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I get Cowboy's food through Harmony Farms...can be cooked or raw
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I work with a lady who raises and shows bassets. She said bathing them with Palmolive dish soap (has to be the original green formula) kills flees on contact. I asked if it was drying to the dogs skin and she said not as long as you get it completely rinsed out. I'm going to try it on my guys tonight unless any of you know why that would be a bad idea.
Thanks for all the good advice - I'm loving this site!
Amy
Jake and Buddy
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I am not sure of the name but pre-mixed is more expensive than just plain raw meat and bones LOL
Are you sure that it is fleas or not some other biting insect or just something that he is plain allergic to? Is he allergic to the advantix?
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I didn't think you could feed just plain raw meat and bones. I thought you had to throw different supplements and what not in there also.
But I have another question about raw now... I called my vet and he said not to feed Bubba raw until after 18 months old. Something to do with growth.. Anyone else ever heard of this? ???
Forgot to add.. Bubba started scratching in late spring and we had never used Advantage flea drops on him before. He does have some inflamed flea bites on him right now. He puffs up like I do if I get bit by them.
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at bj's or costo you can get a huge thing of glucos/chron together. that's what i give fumble, that an vitamin c, also to help with his coat i put flax seed in his dinner!
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Both my dogs were raised on RMB diet. My female was on it since she was weaned onto food and Zero was since 9 or 10 wks they both get meat, bones and organ meat...Majorit y of the vets no very little on raw diets. You only need to add supplement if you cook the food.
Where do you live if you dont mind me asking...If it a humid area you dog could very likely be getting hot spots.
If you really want to look into the diet that I use...Here are some informative sites. Yahoo is the best raw message board around. Raw dog ranch is a great place to learn how to start. Raw Fed dogs is comical and so forth
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/
http://www.rawdogranch.com/
http://www.rawfeddogs.net/
http://rawlearning.com/
Good Luck!
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Thank everyone for the info. I found Glucosamine HCI/Chondroitin.. plus I also found one with Glucosamine HCI/MSM. I take it I should get the one with Chondroitin in it??
Babs, I must have misunderstood about raw. I was under the impression that the supplements needed to be added regardless. That was my main hesitation about feeding raw. I'm going to check out those links you posted. Thanks ;D I'm betting raw would solve alot if not all of Bubba tummy issues.
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I personally believe that every single large breed dog should be on glucosamine from 4 months of age on for life. Big dogs need all the joint and cartiledge help they can get and since glucosamine is far better at "maintaining" cartiledge rather than rebuilding it, it must be used preventatively for best results. My vet and orthopedic surgeon both agree that big dogs should be on this.
If there are joint issues then I also strongly recommend hyaluronic acid - I specifically use Synthovial 7 since it is in liquid form and more readily assimilated by the body. Hyaluronic acid is an all natural lubricant found in the body, and when lacking, is responsible for joint issues/arthritis, vision loss, and skin wrinkling. If you are unfamiliar with it, definitely do a search on it and learn more.
As for supplements - the worst advice you can get is someone telling you an absolute - raw fed dogs don't need any or raw fed dogs must have them all. There is no such thing that can make such statements accurate. The fact is, supplementatio n may be very needed or not at all - it depends on the individual dog, its genetic history, your geographic location and where your food comes from and any specific deficiencies your dog may have. I can say that unless you live somewhere where you can feed fresh kill - skin, fur and all, or a few unique places in this world, none of which are in the U.S., that do not have depleted soils, then some supplementatio n to some degree will be necessary for a complete diet. I am concerned with how many people I encounter who are buying into the notion that they can feed a "prey model" diet, but get the food from their grocery store which is corn fed meat and vegetables grown in serious depleted soils and yet they want to believe their dog is getting all of these vitamins and minerals that if they actually tested, they would find are not even present. It is a fact of life in the U.S. and a lot of areas of Canada that our soils are so depleted, that necessary trace minerals are rarely present in any of our meat sources, even when vitamins are. As a result, the most credible animal nutritionists including Kymythy Schultz and Pitcairn agree that dogs must be provided with kelp, fish oils, and vitamin E and in many cases alfalfa or they will be minerally and EFA deficient. Before anyone ventures into a natural diet, I strongly recommend they do sufficient research first as there are many views out there - start with Kymythy's book - Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats....it is a great starter book.
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I haven't seen it mentioned here anywhere, but have you considered Chicken Soup For the Dog Lover's Soul, or Back to Basics?
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Oh hey I just noticed this post was bumped back up. So I might as well give an update of sorts.
I'm still feeding Bubba the Solid Gold Hundenflocken. He's doing ok with it. Some days his poops are normal and others it's cow pie days. I don't get it. :-\ This is an ongoing thing too.. been happening since we got him at 9 weeks old and he's almost a year old now.
As for the 'clicking' sound that was coming from his ankles/hocks and hips. That's pretty much disappeared on it's own. I rarely hear anything now. Hubby was layed off work for a few weeks but he's back to working now. So I'll be able to pick up the supplements as soon as we catch up on our late bills. >:(
sc.trojans, Thank you for the info. I am going to look up hyaluronic acid right now.
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We have the same thing with Sugar Bear I will think I have it fixed and before your know it cow pies again. He has been on the Solid Gold Hundenflocken for two weeks, so I am going to stay on it for at lease 6-8 weeks and see what happens.
Lisa
Oh hey I just noticed this post was bumped back up. So I might as well give an update of sorts.
I'm still feeding Bubba the Solid Gold Hundenflocken. He's doing ok with it. Some days his poops are normal and others it's cow pie days. I don't get it. :-\ This is an ongoing thing too.. been happening since we got him at 9 weeks old and he's almost a year old now.
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I found this stuff.. k9-MX, it contains Glucosamine HCI as well as hyaluronic acid.. and a bunch of other stuff I'm not sure Bubba would need.. namely herbal pain relievers.
What do you think? Here's the link... http://www.maisonradical.ca/Nouveau_Dossier/Lakota/k9-mx.htm
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We also use Solid Gold Hundenflocken for our guys. They have been on it for over a year. Klondike our big guy has weird allergies sometimes and he has not had a problem with this food. The other good thing is that they all love it! We also use the Missing Link stuff that we sprinkle on top of their food. Klondike blew an ACL in his knee and had surgery a year ago, the Missing Link has Glucosamine in it and I think it really helps his joints.
Good Luck!
Anita & the 3 Newfies from NJ
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Hey, if you are seeing chronic, yet intermittant loose or mucousy stool, then I strongly encourage you to start evaluating IBS - this is classic IBS symptoms and commonly caused by processed food and vaccines. As far as kibble goes (bare with me as I do not feed it), the Hundflocken food is high quality - reputable for not containing by-products or chemical preservatives, but the incredibly high heat processing and rendering processes still can have an impact on the GI tract, causing inflammation and scarring and so if you fed lower quality food before, plus several vaccines (all containing several chemical adjuvants), and then perhaps throw on some more chemicals if you use flea/tick or heartworm meds, and you can have serious inflammation. Colitis (inflammation in the colon) is just one form of IBS and very common, usually cropping up quickly in puppies after frequent vaccinations.
The pattern you are seeing is showing you that things are not optimal or healthy in the GI tract - and the expelling mechanism (diarrhea) is showing up routinely as the system attempts to address it.
There are true cures - not symtom suppressors - but they require big changes, usually including feeding whole fresh foods (cooked or raw), providing mucosal lining agents to heal the tract (such as A.M.P by Molocure) and eliminating all chemical assaults on the system (which usually manifest first in the GI tract before moving elsewhere later and turning into chronic disease).....
Hope you all consider this and truly evaluate this for your own pup....Good luck!
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Thank you that is something to think about and go over with our vet.
Lisa