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Mastiffs => Neapolitan Mastiff Discussions & Pictures => : smohr December 11, 2005, 01:59:27 PM
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??? I have Petra's appt. at 3 pm and I got a call from my daughter that was bitten by Petra last night. She knows an X policeman from D.C. who was in a shooting a few years ago. She called him this morning about Petra and he recently lost his guard dog in a break-in. He was really interested and excited about Petra.
This is his story. He and his wife have no children and don't want any. He was a police officer and was working w/gang unit when he was shot and partially disabled. He has had threats on his life and moved a few times. He has been attacked twice until he got a mastiff/amer. bulldog mix and his police buddies trained it to be a guard dog for him. In early November an intruder broke into their appt. and the dog attacked the guy, but the dog was shot and had to be put to sleep from its injuries. :-[
He has been looking for another dog, preferrably an aggressive dog, that his police buddies that train attack dogs can train for him for protection. He has had threats on his life and he NEEDS another dog for protection. He has looked into shelters and cannot find one that is right yet.
My daughter talked to him about Petra and he wants to give it a try with her and if the trainers cannot work with her then they will have her put to sleep. My daughter is going to D.C. next weekend to visit friends and wants to take Petra with her for this guy. Petra is spayed, crate and cage trained and this ex-police officer is willing to have these expert police trainers work with her.
What can it hurt?? Do you all think this is ok? He wants to give her ONE more chance and he wants an aggressive dog for protection. If he has her trained by EXPERTS that work with aggressive dogs, and she works out that would be great and what he's looking for and if not, he can have her put to sleep.
My daughter says he was so good to his other dog and he wants another dog desparately. He told her that he'd keep me informed of her progress or lack of and even let me know if she has to be put to sleep.
ADVICE???? Should I give Petra this LAST CHANCE or put her to sleep today? ??? :-\
I know I'm wearing everyone out with this issue, but it's so hard for me to decide what to do and since I'm not so objective today, maybe you all could help.
Sherry
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Please, Sherry, don't do that!!!
Dogs trained for protection work need a stable temperament, and Petra does not have that. It would make her MUCH more dangerous.
So PLEASE do NOT give her to this policeman.
Sofia
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I say give her the chance. She will be trained by experts. They can decide from there if she will be trainable and an asset to this ex officer. My husband is a cop and I know the precise and expertise training they provide for these dogs. He is aware of the aggression prob you are having it is not like you are trying to pull the wool over his eyes. Perhaps this will be Petras calling in life!
I think she needs the chance ;)
No matter what you decide I will support you ;)
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I would. If I were in your shoes...I'd let Petra go with him.
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you're not wearing us out with this...not at all. It's a hard decision to make.
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:( I guess I know that; I was grasping at thin air. :'(
The officer probably is too; he lost a beloved pet and doesn't want to see a pet put down w/o giving her another chance.
He's probably like me; thinks he can be the knight who saves the day and pulls out a miracle. :-[
Oh well....
Thanks.
Sherry
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Oh, Sofia, as much as I agree with you rationally, but, emotionally, if I was Sherry, I think I'd give it a try! Maybe, just maybe it could work out....I just don't think anybody knows what's going on in Petra's head. If there are experts who specialize in working with aggressive dogs, maybe she could be molded to do good instead of letting her bad bits surface. At the very least, maybe it could give some peace to the entire family that EVERYTHING was tried.....
I realize that this may be bad advice, but I will do anything to avoid guilt....and if wiser heads prevail and you decide to keep the appointment at 3:00, I completely understand! You must do what is right for your family! And I support you in whatever you choose!!!
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They can decide from there if she will be trainable and an asset to this ex officer.
I agree. They'll be able to tell with her background and testing if she'll qualify for the training.
But its also your decision Sherry, and I'm sure you'll be supported here no matter what. Good luck!
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I think she needs the chance ;)
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Thanks for your advice too. I think I'll give this guy a call myself. I'll try to guage if he sounds sane. Ha! ::)
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Ohhhhh sherry, I can see how you desperately want to find a way to not having to put her to sleep.
I am by no means an expert in how dogs are trained when they become guard/protection dogs, but I think Good Hope is right, they need to be stable.
I can see how, if it works, it would give her one last chance. On the other hand, since it is required of her to be "aggressive" I wonder if she would feel at peace, or just feel unhappy and angry. I know I am no help at all, because I would probably sit and bang my head to the wall in your situation.
If I am to advice in any direction, I would have to only and ONLY see to what I would have done, and I would have let Petra go to sleep quietly and peacefully, and not having to go through yet another situation that could possibly make her even more aggressive and unhappy.
Life sucks hun, and I feel for you sooo badly. I would if I were you, want to talk to the people who train these dogs, see what they say, ask the methods they use, and what impact it has on the dogs, and why they want aggressive dogs, rather than stable dogs. Just to give myself peace of mind.
Please keep us updated on what you decide.
I will be thinking about you and Petra, and hope you can come to a conclusion and feel at peace with it.
Hugs
Marit
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I'll grasp along with you. Call him and talk to him if you can. Find out if this is truly professional guard training or something else. Make sure that you get a guarantee that they will keep you up to date on the progress or lack of. If a professional will evaluate and possibly train her for this, it could just be the chance that she needs. Good luck, which ever way you decide to go, my thoughts are with you , your family and Petra.
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If I were you I think I would give her to the ex-police man BUTÂ I would put in writing that she is a dangerous dog and document her past behaviors so
1. he know fully what he is getting into
2. if she bites someone he can not blame you for not telling him she was dangerous and hold you responsible
You both should sign it and keep copies. If he is willing to do this then I say go for it. Â
better protect you own butt just in case....
edit: spelling fix
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They can decide from there if she will be trainable and an asset to this ex officer.
I agree. They'll be able to tell with her background and testing if she'll qualify for the training.
But its also your decision Sherry, and I'm sure you'll be supported here no matter what. Good luck!
I understand you don't want to put Petra down, but she has shown aggressiveness out of the blue so many times. She is unstable. You have worked with behaviorists, and it has continued. I don't think it is wise.
I wouldn't want to put a dog down either, but I think you were doing the right thing in putting Petra down. Mother and I would have done it long ago if we had a similar animal, but then four of my brothers and sisters are under 10.
The policeman may not realize that Petra is unstable, or he may think that such a dog is okay for protection work. I don't know. If you do decide to go ahead, please talk to him, and make sure he understands that a protection dog is not just supposed to be aggressive; they must be extremely obedient and be good with children, or they will hurt someone badly.
I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, especially yours Smohr, but I don't want to see Petra hurt anyone. Please think about it carefully.
Sofia
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I'd make the phone call and if things checked out after I'd asked all my questions and furnished all the information I have about her......I would give her another chance.
I'd want to know that I'd given her absolutely every chance.
That's what I'd do.
However....I'm not in your shoes.
You know her best.
You are her friend.
I have no doubt you will make the right choice for you and for Petra.
And I'm glad you come here to talk about her.
-Wendy
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OK. First of all, you're NOT wearing us out with this topic - and you never will.
Second, I don't think Petra is a candidate for the type of dog he is looking for her. Her aggressiveness is unpredictable and that is NOT what he wants.
Three: I wasn't going to mention this in your "goodbye" post 'cause I didn't want to give you false hope, but if you are still looking for an alternative, please ask your vet about amitriptolyne (not sure if that is spelled right). It is kind of like pet prozac. My husband's ex-wife has a sheltie that had unpredictable aggression issues. She tried everything, too and finally the vet put the dog on this medication. The dog has to take it every day, but she said it has made all the difference in the world. The dog used to attack her husband every time he came home. Now, it's a mellow, loveable dog.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Jeanne
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Personally I would make an agreement that if it didn't work out you MUST be notified before any decissions were made. In my contract from Apaches breeder it states that the puppy/dog must not be surrendered to any shelter, the breeder must be notified first.
Good luck what ever you decide.
Carolyn
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The policeman may not realize that Petra is unstable, or he may think that such a dog is okay for protection work. I don't know. If you do decide to go ahead, please talk to him, and make sure he understands that a protection dog is not just supposed to be aggressive; they must be extremely obedient and be good with children, or they will hurt someone badly.
Good Hope I understand what you are saying and it is correct. Protection dogs do need to be stable. I was thinking that if they are real professional police dog trainers. They may be able to figure what is triggering Petra. If it is something that can not be correctable than there may be no options left for her. I do think that it is important for Petras mom to make sure everyone in the situation is fully aware of her problems, which she seems very willing to do
edit =spelling
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I do agree with everyone that you should call this guy and talk to him, and maybe ask him if you can talk to the trainers as well and give them all the specifics and see what they have to say. This may sound corney, but I believe that things happen for a reason, fate if you will maybe she is suppose to go to this police officer or maybe this was suppose to happen so that you could talk to your vet about the drug that Jeanne mentioned. No matter what you decide we are behind you 100%
Nina
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Your dog has weak nerves and has proven several times to be unstable....I am sorry the last thing that is going to happen for this dog is to become a certified dog in protection. Your dog is a liability and a big one at that. I am sorry, I am not sugar coating it....How many people has your dog bitten now? I know you love your dog but sometimes love isnt enough. Your dog is still young and caused a lot of damage maturity isnt going to help her and just make her instincts stronger. How many Neo's has this trainer trained? They arent like herders or other molossers...th ey work mainly in defense and your dogs defense is infact fear which isnt correct for a Neo or any other breed for that matter.
These people may not have children but the neighbor may or realitives may and what good is a protection dog if she has to be confined. Training a dog for guarding is a very fine and delicate line and takes many many years.
There are so many dogs that dont make the cut in that field that were bred from titled parents and dont work out.
Am my deepest apologies if this comes across to harsh..I am hormonal due to being pregnant but I feel that this dog is dangerous and has shown a trememdous amounts of signs as truly being a fear agressive powerful animals
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I'd say give it a shot. Maybe someone else can get through to her and help her to become a productive member of the dog community. :)
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definately! It's worth a shot. She just hasn't found her niche yet! This may be it.
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Have any of you taken in a dog that is unstable that has been from unstable background?
You cant even beging to work a Neo in protection until 18mths to 2 years because they are all defense driven
Ground work is started with tug and lots and lots of handling before all of this
I personally know professional decoys and have had long conversations with situations with this
This dog wont even let her nails be clipped never mind taking the pressure of a stick or a decoy charging at her with a hose full of water
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Have any of you taken in a dog that is unstable that has been from unstable background?Â
You cant even beging to work a Neo in protection until 18mths to 2 years because they are all defense driven
Ground work is started with tug and lots and lots of handling before all of this
I personally know professional decoys and have had long conversations with situations with this
This dog wont even let her nails be clipped never mind taking the pressure of a stick or a decoy charging at her with a hose full of water
Yes I have taken in a rescue that was "unstable". she turned out to be the best dog I ever had.
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Our Katie girl(rotti) was such a handful once she started to mature, growling snapping, nipping etc.. I had been to different trainers, nothing was helping. I think my vet had reservations about her. I found one last trainer, if it were not for him. We probably would have had her put to sleep. He got this dog into shape, like you would not believe. No it did not happen overnight. It took time and patience. We saw gradual changes over time. She became a very loving and great family pet. She spent the last 5 years of her life with my daughter with no incidents at all. This trainer trained police dogs and bomb dogs. His dad was a trainer and he grew up with learning training from his dad. He is an amazing trainer and made all the difference in her behaviour. Even our vet at the time comment on the change. He said I would have never believed it, if I didn't see it for myself. She was a real lil bugger to our vet. ;) Some trainers can make all the differnce in the world.
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I think the difference is that you had a dog with stable nerves just very dominant and challenged once starting to mature which can 100% be worked...Petra has been abused and has gone past biting and growling....an d a rotti is different than a Neo
You cant give a dog a stable temp...the dog has to has to be born with it. This dog is acting this way long before maturity is setting in
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I think the difference is that you had a dog with stable nerves just very dominant which can 100% be worked...Petra has been abused and has gone past biting and growling....an d a rotti is different than a Neo
Very true BabsT. I guess I just hate to see this situation and am grasping for an alternative, although there may not be another one.
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I think the difference is that you had a dog with stable nerves just very dominant which can 100% be worked...Petra has been abused and has gone past biting and growling....an d a rotti is different than a Neo
Mine may not have been a Neo...but she was abused.
And this guy can make his own decision.
I understand your point of view...really I do. But this guy must know what he's getting into and how to do what he plans on doing.
This has got to be a hard enough decision for Smohr...let's not bicker about this please?
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Good Hope I understand what you are saying and it is correct. Protection dogs do need to be stable. I was thinking that if they are real professional police dog trainers. They may be able to figure what is triggering Petra. If it is something that can not be correctable than there may be no options left for her. I do think that it is important for Petras mom to make sure everyone in the situation is fully aware of her problems, which she seems very willing to do
edit =spelling
My point is this: I'm afraid that this policeman might not know what he is doing if he is considering taking a dog that has a history such as Petra's. If he does know what he is doing, there is no harm done; either it will work out (extremely unlikely, IMO), or he will tell you that he cannot keep her.
Basically, I think it is a very bad idea; I agree with BabsT about this.
Consider this: If this man does not know what he is doing, how would you or this man live with it if she hurt or killed someone? There is a very real potential for that.
I know I am trying to talk you out of this, and I may come across as very harsh, but I think you need to hear what I perceive to be the truth about Petra. As sad as it is, some dogs cannot be helped. Abuse may have been the problem or may have had nothing to do with this; it could be genetic, in which case there is nothing you can do. You have done everything you possibly can to save this dog, but she has not improved. The bottom line is: Petra remains unstable and therefore dangerous.
Sofia and Deena
P.S. My mother (Deena) says you deserve a BPO award for patience.
P.P.S. Just to clear up any confusion, Mother usually posts here. If the post is signed Sofia, I posted. Mother usually signs (not always), in which case the post would be signed with her name. :)
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Sherry, this has to be sooo hard for you. You asked for advice and I guess since this is such a hard hard situation we all see it from different aspects. First off I want to say, no matter what any of us think, YOU are the one who makes the dec. about what is going to happen to petra.
Someone mentioned Amitriptylene, that is actually a meds. for people with depression. I have heard of it being used for dogs, but dont have any experience of that myself. If that is something you have not tried, maybe that would be something to look into.
We all have different opinions in this, and since it is such a terrible situation for you Sherry, I cant even imagine having to be in that one. I want you to know that whatever you decide, we are behind you, YOU are the one knowing Petra and after collecting facts about the training and the trainers, maybe, hopefully you can come to a conclusion that feels okay in both head and heart. Meanwhile we are here to support you, NOT to point fingers, no need to pour salt in wound.
Hugs
Marit
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I was in shock tonight when she grabbed me and bit my hand as I was feeding her. She continued to growl and snap at me. Earlier, she had lunged at my adult daughter, bit her on the back of her leg and then was growling at the grandchildren
This dog is a HUGE LIABILITY and a very DANGEROUS dog....People are giving her false hopes...yes the dog will be out of her hands but in someone elses
When do you consider a dog dangerous to society?????
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technically all dogs have the potential to be dangerous.
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I know Babs is just trying to save Smohr from more disappointment . I'm confident Babs knows what she is talking about. There is definitely a difference in behavior modification for family pet purposes and behavior modification for protection-dog purposes.
Also, please keep in mind everyone that all dogs are different and it may be that Petra has more than just deep-seated emotional/behavioral issues due to past abuse. She may have suffered or been born with some neurological defects that cause unpredictable, unalterable, unretrainable behaviors.
However, thank Goodness she has us and the references from her daughter to not only explore some last-minute options but to be able to explore all sides of these options. We are not here to give her definitive answers, but advice and the benefit of our experience.
I agree she should talk to the TRAINERS before making a decision on whether or not Petra would be a viable candidate (although personally, I still doubt she is). The former police officer may be grasping at just as many straws as she is right now and may just jump at a not-so-realistic opportunity for a companion/protector. The trainers will be a better reference to determine whether or not Petra may respond to their program.
I also encourage you to ask your vet to explore the amitriptolyne option. I don't know much more than what I told you about this drug. i think it is fairly new to the veterinary community so if your vet is not familiar with it, ask him/her to inquire about it with their local veterinary board or vet school.
I look forward to hearing how this plays out and we are behind you all the way!
Everyone: please don't let this discussion turn into a fight over whether or not fear aggressive dogs can become valuable pets or not. I see it turning in a very ugly direction.
Jeanne
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I wouldn't do it, personally. From the fact that it's not fair on Petra. She obviously has emotional issues caused by people before you took her on. By your own admission, she's been to several behaviourists who recommended euthanasia. Would you rather absolve your own guilt and feeling of failure by sending the poor dog to strangers she doesn't know, put her through a tough training regime she probably won't understand and be very frightened during and inevitably be found unsuitable - which you already know if you're honest with yourself - and be put to sleep in the end anyway. Or you can take your responsibiliti es head on and let her sleep in peace. You'll know where she is and the last thing she'll know is that you are with her and love her. It will break your heart to do it, I know that, but think of Petra rather than yourself.
Believe me, I do not say these things flippantly. It's hard enough putting an old, sick dog down to prevent further suffering, but a youg dog, it's simply awful.
Being cynical, this guy wants a cheap guard dog. I'm pretty sure he can buy a good, fully trained dog who is both stable and controllable. And how would you feel even if after all the training, she goes homewith this guy who is partially disabled and she snaps and attacks him like she has you? He can't get out of the way - she could potentially kill him and you could have a huge law suit in your lap, written contract or not. Even if she's kept outside as a guard dog, how on earth is she going to be with people if she gets absolutely no contact with them apart from being fed? And that's no life for a dog anyway.
edit: And can your daughter get her there safely without having to let her out of her crate? How would you feel if she bit your daughter and you weren't there to intervene?
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I agree with Jeanne. Let's leave it at this! :) Thanks
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Jeanne I agree with you lets not let this turn into something more. Everyone has a different opinion on this matter. I think we have all expressed it .
We have to remember we are here to support Shmor no matter what she decides. It is a very difficult decision for her and I think she needs to know that we are here as friends . ;D
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Oh definitely Icerotti. She's truly alone on this one and has to do what her conscience can live with. But she did ask for opinions and not for everybody to agree with her.
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Oh definitely Icerotti. She's truly alone on this one and has to do what her conscience can live with. But she did ask for opinions and not for everybody to agree with her.
Thank you, Senghe. Even for those of us who believe Petra ought to be put down, it still breaks our hearts to see anyone going through this.
Sofia and Deena
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This is turning ugly, and noone is trying to give anyone false hopes, we see things differently, frome different aspects and nothing says who is more right or wrong. We are all individuals, and humans with feelings and thoughts.
I think we all have pretty much said what need to be said and then some, now it is up to Sherry to make the call, and no matter what we will be here to give her the support she needs. God knows I would have needed a ton of it had I been in that situation
Marit
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Let's remember everyone...agr ee to disagree. Once you have said what is in your heart regarding this matter, let the subject go. The decision is ultimately up Smohr and trying to force her to change her opinion is not what we are here for. She asked for our opinions, got several different ones and now needs to decide what is best for her and Petra in her heart.
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Babs, I appreciate your brutal honesty, but there is a way to express your concerns sensitively. No one is saying you are wrong. I've gone back and re-read all the posts. Schmor definitely wants to hear all sides and she also has NOT posted that she has made a decision yet.
She definitely needs to be aware of these concerns and, if you re-read this thread, I think you'll see several others are just as concerned about these possibilities. Others may not have considered the legal and potentially tragic ramifications of this option until they were presented and have just not retracted their opinions because they have less time at home or work to spend on BPO (me, personally, I avoid real work as much as possible so I can keep up with what's going on here).
However, love often overpowers reason. That's why Sherry is looking at these other options. And, who knows, one of them might work. Petra was doing great for a while. The amitriptolyne may be just what she needs. She may also be told that she is not a candidate for the drug or the trainers, but how would she feel knowing she had sent a dog she loves to be put to sleep without exploring the possibilities?
Again, opinions, advice and previous experience are welcome. Let's try to keep level heads for Sherry's sake.
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I have to say I agree with Babs on this one. Neos aren't typically suited for protection work because of their temperaments and already established drive. With Petra already having issues I think it's a disaster waiting to happen. I also agree with whoever said that the police officer is just looking for a cheap dog. When looking for a protection dog cheap isn't the answer. It's like you don't pick the Holy-O condoms because they're cheaper! Is the money you save worth the consequences?
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I wipe my hands of this board...I am too much of a realist for here....life isnt sugar coated and i am not about to walk on eggshells while there is a child that is in HUGE danger just so a dog can be saved
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It's like you don't pick the Holy-O condoms because they're cheaper! Is the money you save worth the consequences?
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
Oh, Ang, you always know how to give a whole new spin on things! Thank God for you!
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:-\ I don't want to get anyone upset like we were before about Petra. I do appreciate all the advice and angles looked at from everyone.
I spoke with the ex-officer and the trainers who would work w/Petra are professionals who work w/guard dogs, attack and search dogs used in police work. They will first evaluate Petra in this guy's house w/only one trainer. She will be muzzled when out of the cage and working with the trainer until she doesn't show hostility with primary caretakers and the trainer.
I told him everything about Petra and asked him if he'd be willing to sign a contract releasing me from any liability if Petra injured anyone. He said he would. He said he'd not let Petra around anyone until she went through thorough training and if she wasn't able to be trained, he'd inform me that she was going to be put to sleep before doing so.
The officer has 2 cages. They will feed her in a separate cage than she sleeps in. He has a fenced back yard to his apartment, but will walk Petra on a gentle leader after the trainer has worked and walked with her at the training center every day. The officer was shot in his neck and has no feeling in his left arm, but can walk and has the strength to use his right hand to walk her. His wife is also in some type of police work (didn't go into details) so she must be able to handle a dog too.
I called the vet and was told this might be ok to let her go to a professional trainer. I will think this through another day and if there are any doubts, I'll take her to the vet.
Petra has been very calm today with no one visiting or in the house but me. It seems when there are people visiting and there is a change in her routine, she gets mean. When no one but my husband and I are here, she is fine. I fed her today, put my hands right in her bowl as she was eating and no bites. She bit me yesterday when the house was full of grandkids and 2 of my 3 kids here, the TV on and phone ringing. She is calm when the house is calm, but goes crazy when there is confusion in her routine.
It's just so stinking hard looking into those sweet eyes today as she is being so good, thinking someone might be able to take her and she could live happily somewhere and not have to be euthanized. Maybe she just cannot live where there is a lot of confusion and KIDS making noise. Seems like KIDS and the noise and all that is what sets her off every time or right after they have left.
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I think giving yourself time to think is a good thing. There is no deadline on this.
I totally agree with those that have suggested that we all step back and let you have some breathing room. It seems that we've all become emotionally involved with you and therefore Petra and it's only because everybody cares so much that they get upset. As we've all said, no matter what you decide, we're with you and this is always a safe place for you to come!
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YOU ARE ALL THE BESTEST! ;D
I'm not upset and I appreciate the wisdom, advice, warnings and acceptance I have found with this group. When I ask for help you are all here for me and are honest and straightforwar d with me. When I need objective advice you are all willing to help every time I ask. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.
This guy has NO CHILDREN. The side of the apt. complex he lives in allows no children (his few friends he has left after the shooting don't bring kids when visiting) and all dogs must be muzzled when walked. He realizes the liability & training issues. He stated what he really needs in Petra if she can be trained is her companionship and HEARING. He has hearing aids, but cannot hear very well. After being shot in the left side of his neck, he lost hearing in his left ear and most in his right ear. I told him Petra barks at the door handle being turned or a window being opened. I would hope it could work out and I plan on talking to him again before I make up my mind. His wife is also in some kind of police work and has been shot at too, works 12 hour shifts and he has been on disability/ temp. retirement for awhile. [/b]
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I'm not into beating a dead horse or anything...
It sounds to me like Petra is in greater danger of dying from a gunshot wound with this guy than anything else. Who is this guy, a Miami Vice cop? It just sounds so sketchy to me.
Honestly, my biggest concerns about this whole thing as I read all the posts were this guy's credibility. If he needs a dog to HEAR, he could get any dog. He doesn't need a demonstratedly unstable, potentially lethal dog. He could get a chihuahua for hearing.
I agree with Anky and....I can't remember who said it first...that this guy sounds like he just wants a cheap guard dog, and not even a guard dog at that...a hearing dog. Maybe I'm naive, but if this guy has so many death threats, and potential for getting shot, maybe he should be like, in witness protection or something.
I'm sorry, Smohr. I'm not trying to be insensitive. I know that you love Petra and have been through heck. I can't give you good advice. I've been in your exact situation before. It ended with my dog biting a crackhead, me getting sued, and my dog getting put down by animal control.
I won't comment on how I feel about unstable dogs making good pets/guards/companions/hearing dogs...I just want to say that its a truly painful and scary thing when your dog hurts someone. Both for you, the victim, and the dog. He had to spend 21 days in the Animal Control holding area (cold, dirty, little food, NO CLEANING OF HIS KENNEL) while the investigation was under way and he awaited his death. I'm not trying to be brash, I'm not trying to freak you out. I'm just saying that the combination of all these factors don't sound good to me. The guy sounds like a fruit with a big ego. And, my experience has been its better to let an unstable (TRULY unstable, not just "troubled") dog go peacefully than risk it.
Its just my experience, Smohr. I would have advocated the cop take the dog in a HEARTBEAT if I had not been through this before and had the agony of my dog hurting someone...I don't envy you and its very painful for me to even THINK about what you're going through. Good luck.
*edited to say* Oops, I guess I did comment on how I feel about it. Sorry...
*edited again to change H-E-Double Hockey Sticks to heck*
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Something I was thinking of in the car that bothered me about the whole police officer situation (I'm NOT saying he's a bad guy, I just have issues with some comments he made and the way he's going around doing this).
The main thing is he said he wants an aggressive dog. Aggressive dogs do NOT make good guard/protection/attack dogs. Dogs with DRIVE do. There is a HUGE difference. Aggressive dogs have no restraint, no self control, they'd go to anger management classes if they were human. Dogs with DRIVE are guys like Walker Texas Ranger, who're calm and full of self control but can snap you like a toothpick if they have to.
Also the comment he was looking at rescues and shelters really bothered me. This is the WORST place to look for a dog for this kind of work. You need a dog that hasn't had issues with the world at large, that you KNOW it's history, that hasn't had the world kick it. You need a clean slate. Honestly I'm kind of worried that he's even looking at places like this for a dog that is so specialized. Once again not saying he's a bad guy, just misguided.
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smohr, i'm so sorry that you are going through this and have to make this decision! looking into the eyes of a baby that you love, and one that has created so many great memories and thinking about not having that anymore is one of the toughest things EVER. u did a great thing by getting petra (anyone who takes a rescue is an angel), and you have given her a wonderful try. you've been through good times, and you've been through bad times, but you still love her no matter what and i thank you for that. you are a great person, and you WILL make the best decision. there are great arguements on both sides, but what it comes down to is you. she is your baby, you know her best, and you will make the right decision for her safety and comfort. i have nothing to say for either side of this issue other than YOU and YOU only need to figure this out, and we will be here for you and respect you for whatever you decide. petra is a great dog that just had all the odds built up against her, but i trust that you will do what is right for her, no matter what it is.
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I am certainly not a neo expert but something I just wanted to add that I have learned in doing research on neos is that they are already guard dogs, it is in their nature and I have read that any further guard dog training done on a neo can be extremely dangerous and should NEVER be done. Just something I though was important.
Good luck in you decision.
Steph
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I guess what it boils down to, is what is Petra's Quality of Life going to be like in this situation?
It doesn't sound like she's going to get any kind of help from this bloke for her problems, and putting her in this type of situation might aggrivate the issues she's already trying to deal with.
I dunno hun, but this whole thing sounds very peculiar, and I know quite a few folks in the law enforcement community that recommend you be very suspcious. Just because a fella says he wears a badge, does not make him one of the good guys....
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smohr, i'm so sorry that you are going through this and have to make this decision! looking into the eyes of a baby that you love, and one that has created so many great memories and thinking about not having that anymore is one of the toughest things EVER. u did a great thing by getting petra (anyone who takes a rescue is an angel), and you have given her a wonderful try. you've been through good times, and you've been through bad times, but you still love her no matter what and i thank you for that. you are a great person, and you WILL make the best decision. there are great arguements on both sides, but what it comes down to is you. she is your baby, you know her best, and you will make the right decision for her safety and comfort. i have nothing to say for either side of this issue other than YOU and YOU only need to figure this out, and we will be here for you and respect you for whatever you decide. petra is a great dog that just had all the odds built up against her, but i trust that you will do what is right for her, no matter what it is.Â
Well said.
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Hi,
Wow now this thread has gone to quoting what the "ex cop"said. I missed his posts.
Look Smohr has enough to think about with Petra, She is talking to the "ex cop" she is talking to the protection trainers, and her vet at this point our thoughts on motives of anyone involved in Petra's future are not of value to Smohr, what more can she do and for those who think he should be put down I have not read anything where that was not still in the solution. Let Smohr and her family get through the Holidays with the hope they want to hold and this will all work out for everyones best interest come the new year.
Lets not assume everyone has an evil streak. It is the holidays, Lets assume, the Ex Cop is a nice guy and Petra is destined to serve in this capacity.
That is my hope.
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Hi,
Wow now this thread has gone to quoting what the "ex cop"said. I missed his posts.
Look Smohr has enough to think about with Petra, She is talking to the "ex cop" she is talking to the protection trainers, and her vet at this point our thoughts on motives of anyone involved in Petra's future are not of value to Smohr, what more can she do and for those who think he should be put down I have not read anything where that was not still in the solution. Let Smohr and her family get through the Holidays with the hope they want to hold and this will all work out for everyones best interest come the new year.
Lets not assume everyone has an evil streak. It is the holidays, Lets assume, the Ex Cop is a nice guy and Petra is destined to serve in this capacity.
That is my hope.
THANK YOU, well said
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Hi,
Wow now this thread has gone to quoting what the "ex cop"said. I missed his posts.
Look Smohr has enough to think about with Petra, She is talking to the "ex cop" she is talking to the protection trainers, and her vet at this point our thoughts on motives of anyone involved in Petra's future are not of value to Smohr, what more can she do and for those who think he should be put down I have not read anything where that was not still in the solution. Let Smohr and her family get through the Holidays with the hope they want to hold and this will all work out for everyones best interest come the new year.
Lets not assume everyone has an evil streak. It is the holidays, Lets assume, the Ex Cop is a nice guy and Petra is destined to serve in this capacity.
That is my hope.Â
Assumptions are a dangerous thing. Assumptions that not everyone has an evil streak is what got me sexually assaulted and thrown on the street. People need to hear bad things to keep everything in perspective. I know I don't want Shelley to feel guilty and I dont' want that at all. At the same time, I know that I would want realistic opinions. Like Babs said, some things can't be sugar coated. I, Nicole, Babs and Jenn and everyone else can voice our opinions because they were asked for. I'm all for giving dogs a second chance. But to tell us to assume that it's all going to work out, when there's a big chance it won't, and if it doesn't the results could be disastrous, that just makes no sense to me.
I just posted about how BPO is a friendly place where people can come for advice no matter what. But the thing is, sometimes the world isn't a happy go lucky place, sometimes the dogs can't be saved, and someone has to say it.
Shelley is going to do what she feels is best and I wish everything I can for her. But she asked for all opinions. Whatever she decides it's going to be hard for her. We can say whatever we want and it's still her decision. I just think that she deserves to here all sides as opposed to just the Care Bear versions.
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we shouldn't assume everyone is bad just as we shouldn't assume everyone is good. i'm sorry to hear what happened to you, but should i walk down the street in fear now? or should i never trust another man in my life? we need to be AWARE that there are good people/ bad people, good situations/bad situations, good luck AND bad luck.
i don't think everything in life should be sugar coated. i also think opinions should not be pushed and forced, and when asked one time, i do not think you need to speak your case 35 times. when someone tells me something, i take it in. if i like it or hate it, if i decide to use it or not, is up to me. by asking someones OPINION, i am able to hear it and make my own choice....i do not have to make THAT choice. and i also do not want to hear their opinion or different versions of their opinion (as if i did not really get it the first time) for the next 2 weeks. when i ask and you tell, it is over, thank you, move on. if i ask you again, if i ask for more detail, or if i ask you to make the choice FOR me, then so be it.
this ex-cop...who knows. i don't know him, i know very little about him. actually, i only know about 1 paragraph about him. i haven't spoken to him on the phone, i don't have a daughter who knows him, i haven't talked to others about him. i only know what smohr told me, which is exactly what she told you all. how you can draw out that he is evil and lying from 1 paragraph baffles me. no one knows this dog, or this situation like smohr, and for everyone to draw these cray ideas and conclusions is crazy to me. i understand there is evil, there is also good. we don't know what this situation or man may bring, but let's let smohr do her reasearch on this guy if she thinks it is a good option. what is it going to hurt? it's her choice.
the only thing i know is that the BPOers fighting and scrapping in this post IS NOT helping smohr OR petra. this little petty crap does not matter. so lets all stop. i think plenty has been said in this thread already.
anky---dude, this post wasn't directed at you either...just a general post k?
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:-[ You know, come to think of all this (and it's made me think) this guy doesn't have a lot of money to get a dog like he wants and his friends are willing to help him out w/training, but it is kinda shady about his situation.
My daughter met him while working w/an attorney for the officer. He had some kind of case in a lawsuit. She said he's a nice guy, but what do you really know about someone you meet while working for an attorney? She kept in touch w/him because he became friends w/one of her friends.
Maybe I've been looking too hard for a "savior" for Petra.
Let me sleep on this...write this down (visualize.) I'll read and re-read these posts.
Thanks guys and gals. This is the best group of dog lovers I know.
Sherry
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That's what we're here for!
And, remember, we all know you have Petra's best interests at heart. It's difficult to see clearly when your heart gets in the way sometimes. I applaud you for carefully looking at all angles of the situation.
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Hi Sherry and all,
Yes there are bad people and pets, Yes we need to be aware of the bad that can happen. I am sorry for anyone who has or had to live through "bad things" THAT SUCKS.
I do not live in a "Care Bear world" and those liitle bears kind of freak me out anyway;-). I don't live in a musical, comedy or a drama either.
I just wanted to point out that Sherry has physically spoken with all the possible characters they may impact hers and Petra's life. I think she is capable of deciding what is best and she is doing a fabulous job!!
All our opinons have made her think that is good!! I still believe it will all work out for the best, sorry I'm an optimist on that.
Sherry sleep well on your thoughts, and as has been said, buy 5 pages of posters you are supported by all BPOers and we will be here for you no matter how things turnout.
Rich
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Sherry,
Please, sleep well. You are in Petra's corner no matter what. I think you just need rest and to put your arms around Petra and just try to sort stuff out. The goods and bads have been well stated.
Okay....I'm done babbling now!
Good night, Sherry and Petra...sweet dreams!
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:) I promise myself, Petra and society that I'll do my very best for all involved, even if it is helping her cross the bridge to peace away from all the stresses. I was thinking that sending her to another owner would be stressful and may be the breaking point in her heart.
She does love me and has shown it so many times even if she "forgets" herself sometimes and protects her food or me from someone I don't need protecting from.
She has cuddled with me, licked my face when I've cried over her or other reasons, tried so hard learning her commands and does them so well.
Petra's snoring in the night will be missed. I wake up and shhhh her and she stops, rolls over and in about another hours snores again. She barks and growls when my husband snores until he stops. She only passes gas when she's lying beside my husband's chair. :D ::)
She snorts at me -everytime- when I make cross-eyes at her - a game we play. She pinch bites when I have her toy in tug of war.
When I'm sitting on the floor, she plops her behind on my lap like a kid would and licks my face till I scratch above her tail. If I stop, she tackles me. :P
She captures (only) my husbands dirty socks and brings them to me like they are prizes. She tries to bury them sometimes in her blanket in her cage (stinky ones.)
She gets in the bathtub and jumps up and down, splashing all the water out. Then she carries her towel all over the house shaking it like it was the enemy that got her wet.
She has a leopard fur ball that has a squeaker in it and she walks around at times, following me, squeaking at me like she's talking to me. She carries it like her security blanket and her talking device. When I tell her to go to her bed when she's gotten into something, she grabs that ball and squeaks it all the way to her bed and looks at me squeaking that ball like she's arguing with me.
She loves raw onions and carrots but won't eat cooked chicken. That must be the proof she has a screw loose. :-\
I will miss her. I have loved her even with her foibles and follies.
I believe I know in my heart that she must be led to the bridge and I will be there with her, holding her, soothing her and saying I love her as she slips away. It will be sooo hard.
I really thank you ALL for your advice, guidance, sensible caring and comfort. I'll let you know.
YOU ARE ALL THE MOST WONDERFUL PEOPLE...
SHERRY - PETRA'S MOMMY
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I hope you get a good nights sleep, God knows you need it. It was a really great post and it sounds like you are a little more at peace. I hope thats the case.
Nighty night Sherry and Petra
Marit
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Oh Sherry, that made me cry...
You are making the right decisions... for both of you.
God bless you and help you through this...
--Samson and Cooper
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No one should ever have to go through this or make these kinds of decisions. I am really sorry Smohr.
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I really admire you; You have gone through he** and back to do right by this pup. I have been following this saga since the beginning and every post you have made about this shows the concern in your heart for Petra. I do not envy the position that you have been in throughout all of this but I truly look up to you for the courage and fortitude that you have displayed. Godspeed to Petra and I wish you peace. Thank you for letting us share this experience with you and grow by that.
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As Petra's mommy you did what needed to be done and did not pass the responsibility to someone else. My heart hurts knowing how difficult this must have been for you.
Cindy
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As I sit here and cry, I know that you did what was in your heart and that is all that matters. You've done all that you can. We love you Sherry and are here whenever you need us.
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I sit here and shed tears for you. I can only imagine the heartbreak you must be experiencing. You are now one of my heros...I don't know that I couldhave made a decision like that. You did what was best for her and for everyone else. Gosh, baby, I am SOOOO sorry. Hugs....
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Sherry, that was truly touching. You are an amazing person! ;)
I am so sorry for what you are feeling right now, my thoughts (and tears) are with you. Please know that you gave Petra an EXCELLENT life, and she WILL INDEED be smiling down on you from the bridge.
Take care of yourself please, get some rest and have sweet dreams of Petra running & playing at the bridge with her new-found puppy friends. Petra KNOWS (and always will know) just how much you love her...
Sincerely,
Kelly
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After reading all these posts, Smohr you did the right thing. I personally think it would have been a bad choice to give Petra to that guy. It sounds like he needs a gun, not a dog. If he's in that much danger with shady folks, no dog in the world will completely protect him. He needs to move away from where he is and start over. I feel for him because he was injured in the line of duty, but that is his fate and he needs to deal with it. I'm very sorry you had to say goodbye to Petra, but you will always have the memories of her love, which nobody else may ever have known. It may have been a much sadder ending had you made a different choice.... Good luck and think happy thoughts.
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Sweetheart, bless you and Petra both. You've done your best for Petra all along and no dog can hope for more. With your endless perseverence, you've given her months of happiness and kindness that she would have otherwise never known. As long as you remember her as fondly as the portrait your last post depicted, she'll always be with you.
In time, I hope you share your love with another big paws in need of your help.
Must go - my keyboard is getting waterlogged here.
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Sherry
Our thoughts are with you at this very difficult time. I cant even begin to imagine how hard this must be for you. Be strong!! You are a good person and are doing the right thing for Petra. It takes alot of love to make the decision to let her go on to a better place and everyone here knows that you love Pertra. Big HUGS!!
Coonie & Judge