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Retrievers => Golden Retriever Discussions => : meg May 18, 2005, 12:24:08 PM
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Hi, my six month old golden and I are about to start obedience class. At the first meeting last night (owners only, no dogs present) the instructor gave us all of her requirements, one of which is they need to wear a pinch collar of choke collar. Is this really necessary? It seems mean to me, am I missing an important point? When we did puppy class and beginners obedience, we did not need this type of equipment. (This is a different instructor).... any advice or thoughts please....???
I don't want to hurt of scare her in anyway, she is such a sweetheart.
Thanks
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Where are you taking the training class. Most of them these days refuse to let you use a pinch collar or choker. They will only allow a head-halter, or flat collar.
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I have always used choke chains for walking/school, flat buckle collar for home. When training with the horses if I am being pulled constantly I will use a prong choke, "as a tool or cruch" the response is no pulling. constant pulling is the cause of injury in most cases. Its how you use your collar that will make it harsh. My teacher once recommended trying Apache on a "halti", I told my breeder & she said no, its not natural for a dog to lead like that & he looked so sad with the halti. Now at 2-1/2 Apache doesn't pull or lunge a birds, bugs or anything. He heals at my side almost all the time.
Carolyn
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Samson has been through 2 puppy classes already & will start adult classes soon...In all of these classes the types of collars you mentioned were prohibited...I don't understand why the instructor would want to start with a choke/prong collar with out seeing what the dog will do with a flat collar first...It sounds to me like he/she might be old school training...The requirement of those types of collar would be a BIG red flag to me!...Ecspecially on a pup....Do you know what kind of training methods he/she uses?...Hope it's not the old school "choke & drag". >:(
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I also use a choke chain with Sophie and I agree that you definitely have to know how to use it. I've tried other things with her including a halti which she just looked so uncomfortable in.I also tried a Sporn harness (which goes underneath the dogs legs and clips onto a collar) with both of these she pulled terribly so I went back to the choke chain. She heels right next to my side with the chain loose on her neck. Its definitely a personal preferance if you are uneasy about using a choke or prong collar then do not use it. The dog will pick up on your vibes and if you are not comfortable the dog will not be either.
Rachel
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Sorry, I guess I am old school. I have always used a prong coller on my dogs for walks and schooling, I consider it "power steering" for my danes. When used correctly they are not harsh, and have eliminated pulling and curbed my dane's dog aggression. The dogs run from every corner of the house if you rattle a collar and will pout if no walk is forthcoming. They stick their heads out and hold their bodies and necks still while their feet beat a tatoo on the floor, in anticipation of theit walk. I can't help but think that the prong collars are not an issue in the face of all that enthusiasm.
Stella
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I also use a "pinch" when walking Apollo. He's just so rambunctious when we go for "Walkies" and simply must sniff/greet/herd every moving thing, and as he weighs 135lbs, I feel like a kite in a windstorm without it. My father, who has raised, trained and shown champion Dobies suggested it, as I have an aversion to choke chains. (The poor pups look like they're trying to hang themselves on the end of those devicies.)
I find it to be a great "training" (not punishment!) tool, and look forward to the day when he's old enough to realise that not everyone *must* love him.
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I have no issue with using choke or prong collars...I have even bought Samson a prong collar to work on walking but took it back before I even used it because I was not comfortable with it...I just am wondering why that particular trainer would start a pup with either collar without seeing how the dog does without first...I had a friend who took her Boxer to a trainer who literally broke blood vessels in the dogs eyes when she wouldn't go into the down position by yanking on her leash...That is my concern for what training method is to be used...That is what I mean by old school choke & drag...Needles s to say my friend left the class & never took her Boxer back...She felt so bad..She didn't know waht training methods were used or she would have never put her sweet dog through it in the 1st place...The trainer apologized & payed the vet bills but as far as I know she still uses the same methods...Now, for walking Samson, I got him a harness which helps the pulling tremendously.. .It doesn't seem like it should but it does with him...When he pulls I simply stop & wait for him to wonder why we aren't moving...He looks back at me 7 I tell him "walk nice"...When he starts to walk again without pulling I praise him...A soon as he pulls we stop...Sometim es it took 20 minutes to walk a short block but he gets better & better.
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She said it was a requirement for all dogs in her class, and it sounds like there will be some pretty small ones there also. She works out of one of the local groomers. I don't know what her methods are. She just told us we needed one of these when we come back next week. AND of course, she didn't mention all this until we had all paid our fees.
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http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html
These two articles give a good overview of both haltis and prongs. I use a plastic prong on Earnest, (he's lab/dane) and a metal one on Phyfe (he's St./Mastiff) Phyfe only wears the metal one because the plastic one can't poke him through his fur. He has a trachea injury from being abused with a choke chain, the prong collar is actually much milder on him. He walks well and doesn't bolt, it's just that every now and then something by the side of the trail will catch his attention, and he will suddenly change direction, literally hard enough to pull my arm out. He's not even trying to bolt, just taking a few steps THAT WAY. With the prong he feels the poke ON HIS SKIN (as opposed to pressure on his neck) and immediately releases the pressure on the lead.
Here's a link for the plastic prong:
http://www.aboutdogtraining.com/panel.php?5
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We have used both for Bear and had no real problem with either, though the pinch collar made him look mean in my opinion. We prefer to use a martingale collar or an extremely thin "show" choke when walking or playing. The thin choke is sooooo wonderful at preventing any pulling he might do and doesn't hurt him at all. Plus, you can't see it through all of his hair!
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Personally I do not like pinch collars and I don't like to see people using them, they inflict pain and that is no way to train a dog. A choke chain on the other hand is very useful in training and is not painful when used properly. Just my opinion :)
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i use a prong on dakota i have for 9 years i have no problem with them ..i would ? why they would start them off that way..i little story i took my female boxer to her first class and was told to bring a choke the trainer was horrble she used all force and with out going into detail becouse it still brings tears to my eyes..i ended up at the vet, this trainer choked my dog to the point of breaking blood vesels in her eyes so my vet gave her a shot to take the swelling down and she went in to shock from the shot...she gave her another shot to bring her out of that..she recovered but i still feel guilty by putting her in that class...that being said. used right both types of collars will work but just be careful and don't do anything your not comfertable with...... good luck let us know how it went....
ann
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OMG Ann! I've never heard of such a thing! I'm glad it all turned out alright.
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Thank you for all the info. I will check out the links right now. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and ideas :)
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i have to disagree with choke collars not causing pain they do and most people do not know how to use them and yes prong collars will cause pain too but i have seen to many people walking down the street choking the h*ll out of thier poor dog ..but with the prong a dog will not pull..i sell pet supplies and choke collars are considered outdated and not affective by most that we don't even sell them anymore...
ann
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It seems that this has turned into a debate about choke & prong collars when I believe the origional post was about the posters concern about why this particular instructor wants them to use one...I felt that she was uneasy with the request as in her previous classes they didn't use these types of collars...I would contact the instructor & find just what methods he/she uses before attending...& please let us know how things turn out.
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Ty for hearing me...I wasn't trying to step on anyone's toes by any means!....God knows I have had to use tactics with Samson that weren't reccomended in our classes...Like you said, "different strokes for different folks" or dogs as the case may be....B.t.w., the big fluffy dog...What in the heck is that?...lol...I want one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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First I would like to say, if all the requirements were clear when you paied your fee, you can either get it back, or simply tell her, what you feel you are comfortable with using. Without a doubt it does sound like it is a somewhat strange approach, since more or less all obedience schools today are strictly against using chokers in class. Personally I don't think it should be used on a puppy, other than that, well like another poster said, they all have pros and cons, and if used the right way. I think the golden rule should be, not to use more "force" or "power" than that perticular dog really needs, and most of all, don't ever use something you are not comfortable with yourself and feel is needed for your dog. it is YOUR dog, and if you feel bad about it, I am sure he will too, and then it is a bad class just waiting to happen.
It would be real interesting to hear what this trainer say about why you need chooker on him, please keep us updated and good luck to you with your training
Marit
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I have to disagree with the statement that dogs do not pull with a prong collar because I tried it with Ace a few years back and he still pulled, it was more like he pull and it hurt, pull and hurt pull and hurt and on and on. My dog is very sensitive. I took him to a behaviourist and she had me take it off him immediately, so maybe they do work for other dogs but not mine.
All in all anything can be bad if not used properly.
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It isn't just my dog that needs the collar, it is all that are enrolled in her classes. Some pretty small dogs too, cocker and pomerinian. I think a german shepard and rotwieler were going to be there too. The dogs were not present at the first session, so she has seen none of them.
The collar issue is also in contrast about only using postive training, and never hit your dog (don't know how anyone would condone that)...it is confusing. I will let you know. Calling today to express this concern and if she is willing to do any alternatives.
I will let you know. Thanks you all sooooo much.
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pinch colar??????????
i don't think so
please get a new place to go for obedience
a good trainer does not need to use a PINCH COLAR
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grrrrrrrrrrrrr rrr
on the pinch colar the more i think about it the madder i get especially on a golden they learn so easy
ok this is a brag as far as we know we have the youngest ridgeback in AKC history to get a CGC
never ever did we use a pinch
reward and repeat here is a very old photo from the CGC win
we miss nyobi she has been placed a long time ago in a therapy home. and our little boy is now a man.
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Just because someone's training methods differ from yours doesn't make that person a bad trainer. And because I do use a pinch collar on my dogs doesn't make me a cruel or uncaring owner. I'm glad that your ridgeback trained so easily on a different collar, and wouldn't take anything away fron her great accomplishment s. That doesn't mean that my danes and other dogs will do as well with the same methods. I don't mean to step on any toes, but I am offended by the notion that one trainer or collar fits all. It just ain't so, folks. If you are not comfortable with the trainer, by all means, find someone else whose methods suit you better, but don't slam people like my trainer whose methods suit me very well.
Stella
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Stella, I hope I have not offended you, I truly did not mean to if so and I dont think anyone else did either, mind you I see your point and lets all try and not get quite as excited, hmmm is that why my hubby says we women tend to run away and say things before we think lol.... I used to use chokers when training German Shepherds, and I am aware of that different dogs need different methods.
I still think that a trainer should tell everyone exactly what is expected of them when it comes to a thing like the collar before they sign up and pay, so you have a choice if you want to go there or choose another trainer or another method.
Hugs and hope you dont feel bad, absolutely no need to, I am sure petsmarts sales statistics can prove that lol...
Marit
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, but I am offended by the notion that one trainer or collar fits all. It just ain't so, folks. If you are not comfortable with the trainer, by all means, find someone else whose methods suit you better, but don't slam people like my trainer whose methods suit me very well.
Stella
everyone has a different way of learning. i know this is a bad example, but it is an easy one. and that is that i cannot learn by reading thing. if i watch a movie on how to do something, i will do it right the first time and every time after...if i look at a picture book, i can do it right...if someone sits with me and shows me, they will never have a need to do so again...but put me infront of a book without pictures and i will absolutely not be able to figure out the most simple thing. i just learn things different than everyone else. thats why there are so many different methods in schools now, cuz they recognize that all the kids dont learn the same way. again, bad example, and thank goodness i never needed a collar lol, but its what i think of it as. just because one dog learns with a pinch doesn't mean another will...just because one learns with positive rewards doesn't mean one will...you would think lol, but not so.
cody was SOOOO easy to train. he was the star in class, the teacher always used him because she would say something to him once, show him how to do it, and he would do it forever. he was perfect. i didn't need a pinch or choke, to yell, nothing...i used treats and that was all he cared about. mr wangus on the other hand....hes a different story. he doesn't respond to a pinch, a choke, or treats. all he wants is to pull me and drive me crazy. he doesn't respond to firm NOs, he doesn't respond to rewards and praise....he is the devil.....(but on a side note, earlier today he wasn't barking like he usually does for some reason...he is however back to it full force now)....
anyway.....one size doesn't fit all. it never does. i buy those one size fits all socks...and THEY NEVER FIT ME. just anther bad example. lol...i could go on and on....but i just am laughing too hard at how dumb i sound to keep typing LOL....
LATER
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You are funny Nicki! Thanks for picking up the mood in this topic. I guess if one size did fit all then we'd all be models walking around with our dogs in our purses since that seems to be the trend htese days. :D
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Thanks Nicki, can just picture you at your computer laughing up a storm. You do have a good point.
Only thing, I would never make it with the models with the dogs in their purses....have only owned big, huggable, loveable dogs, LOL
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LOL....my cousin goes to USC...and she says ever since legally blonde all the girls bring their friggin rats to school in their purses....
im gonna apply there, and if i get in, im bringing angus and cody.