Big Paws Only Dog Forums
Mastiffs => American Mastiff Discussions & Pictures => : Softhug January 29, 2006, 11:07:18 PM
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I was checking out some other forums and the discussions were so HEATED about AM's! I just don't get it! I know I am new and don't even HAVE mine yet, but why the hate? I am aware that they aren't AKC registered and that is ok. I don't plan on breeding. It just seems so silly to get feathers all ruffled over a breed of dog. Boggles the mind....
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I have wondered the same thing before. I think it is a situation where people who love Old English Mastiffs believe that the AM's are "mutts". (And mutt is not a dirty word in my book either way!)
In my opinion, every breed starts somewhere, some are very very old, but then you have the Doberman which is maybe a hundred years old or so... I wonder if they were treated as mutts in the beginning too? If people called them Rottweiler/German Pinscher mixes? And why do you think there are long-haired Saint Bernards??? From what I have read, it's because the breed was suffering and they had to add some Newfoundland blood to strengthen the genetics!!! :)
If what they are doing is in attempt to breed strong healthy animals, sounds like a good idea to me.
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I have to agree. Taking it too the human level...my pedigree stinks! But we do live long and are pretty healthy! There's NO royality or Best in Shows in our blood line! I LOVE the brown Landseers but they aren't AKC 'approved' either.
L & K
A Mutt!
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I have wondered the same thing before. I think it is a situation where people who love Old English Mastiffs believe that the AM's are "mutts". (And mutt is not a dirty word in my book either way!)
In my opinion, every breed starts somewhere, some are very very old, but then you have the Doberman which is maybe a hundred years old or so... I wonder if they were treated as mutts in the beginning too? If people called them Rottweiler/German Pinscher mixes? And why do you think there are long-haired Saint Bernards??? From what I have read, it's because the breed was suffering and they had to add some Newfoundland blood to strengthen the genetics!!! :)
If what they are doing is in attempt to breed strong healthy animals, sounds like a good idea to me.
It was Newfie & Great Pyr that were crossed with the smooth coated St.'s..Ty! :P ;D lol!
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It was Newfie & Great Pyr that were crossed with the smooth coated St.'s..Ty! :P ;D lol!
Please forgive me oh mighty Great Pyrenees, how could I not give you the credit you so rightfully deserve? My apologies forever... I shall now on double-check and cross-reference all my sources for canine history!!
;)
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I don't post often but I just had to jump in here. I believe one of the main reasons that the discussion gets heated is because a AM is a mix between a OEM and an Anatolian Shepard. The pups are being touted as a dry-mouthed mastiff with the gentle giant disposition. What potential owners aren't being told about is the temperment of the Anatolian. People may wind up with a 200+ lb dog that is possessive, protective and who dislike strangers. I am not bashing the Anatolian at all. I have met a couple and they are great dogs. The problem is when people get a dog without doing the research. When getting a dog, people really need to do their homework so that the dog they get has the temperment that suits them. Otherwise, dogs end up being put down or dumped in rescue.
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I think OEM owners like myself were feeling as if AM breeders were saying our dogs weren't good enough and bragging that AM had no faults like the OEM. AM owners/breeders were feeling as if OEM owners/breeders were against AM because they are not pure bred.
Strong opinions clashed and will probably clash again. Hence the fact that someone always tries to end OEM versus AM discussions quickly and quietly.
So, if no one has an issue with it, I think we should drop this thread and agree to disagree.
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Well I just appreciate the input and think everyone who posted on the topic handled themselves with grace, OEM or AM owner. I didn't see anyone getting heated or disrespectful.
I think no matter what breed to are looking into, research needs to be done--big paw and tiny paw alike.
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It was Newfie & Great Pyr that were crossed with the smooth coated St.'s..Ty! :P ;D lol!
Please forgive me oh mighty Great Pyrenees, how could I not give you the credit you so rightfully deserve? My apologies forever... I shall now on double-check and cross-reference all my sources for canine history!!
;)
I thought that combo was what made up the Leonberger and only the Newfie was used to re-strengthen the Saints genepool? Too much to remember. Whatever, I love all dogs, even ugly mutts and foofy poodles. I agree with people's concern and wariness about genetic meddling and puppy milling, although I don't know anything about this AM issue, so I won't pretend to understand.
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I don't post often but I just had to jump in here. I believe one of the main reasons that the discussion gets heated is because a AM is a mix between a OEM and an Anatolian Shepard. The pups are being touted as a dry-mouthed mastiff with the gentle giant disposition. What potential owners aren't being told about is the temperment of the Anatolian. People may wind up with a 200+ lb dog that is possessive, protective and who dislike strangers. I am not bashing the Anatolian at all. I have met a couple and they are great dogs. The problem is when people get a dog without doing the research. When getting a dog, people really need to do their homework so that the dog they get has the temperment that suits them. Otherwise, dogs end up being put down or dumped in rescue.Â
I too met with a lot of hostility when doing my initial research in the AM v OEM. As someone with a new AM puppy I wanted to chime in. I have been in contact with a number of different AM owners and havent really seen anyone that has a real AS disposition. I think the cross was 7/8 OEM 1/8 AS. Now like most dogs their is a spectrum of behaviors that would reflect the OEM side or the AS side. Most fall in between. I was initially concerned with the AS as well, but after doing some homework I felt better. The sad part was when I went to some of the OEM sites, I wasnt really given much help other than saying that the AM is the worst dog ever bred.
As an new parent of an AM, I always point out that he is not an OEM, not as a matter of saying my dog is better, but rather as a show of respect for the OEM.Â
I look at the AM as I do other big dogs. For example, I have met and actually had a Rottie that was more protective than most, and have had a rottie that was the most stranger friendly dog I have ever had. I think what concerns most OEM folks is that some propective oweners may go with an AM over an OEM because they think that the AM is an OEM that doesnt drool or have any faults. Lets face it if any breed were a perfect breed there would need to be as many rescue groups as there are.
I think most AM breeders point out the whole drool aspect not as drool free but with less drool. This is from one breeders site:
Fredericka Wagner of Flying W. Farm created the foundation stock of the American Mastiff, infusing Anatolian Mastiffs into the English lines.There is no need to carry a drool rag everywhere you go with an American Mastiff. They do drool, when excited and around food, but really no more than most any other breed of dog. That is a major plus in the live with quotient with these beautiful giants.
Anyway, I think most members of this site are more accepting of all dogs and arent looking to "push" their breed. Its a great forum to ask these questions without getting bashed. Sorry, about the long winded response but I really think that the AM is a wonderful dog.
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My OEM has FLying W Farms way back in her pedigree. Just a random fact.
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No kidding?! I think it is great that they have done such a service to both breeds!
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Honestly, I think the problem that people have with AMs is that they're coming about in a time where we are over run with "Designer Breed" dogs, and that taints people's opinions. I'm not judging anyone who has them or anything here I'm just stating my personal opinions on why I would never have one. I understand the fusing of the Anatolian (7/8 mastiff to 1/8 Anatolian), but I don't like the whole gimmicky "Just as good as an OEM without the health problems and doesn't drool!". Don't tell me that a giant breed dog isn't going to have giant breed dog health issues. As for the drooling, I've never met an AM, and I can't say if they drool or not, but I don't like sales pitches when it comes to a 200 pound animal. Â
It also bothers me that only a few places "carry" the AM. One almost exclusively. I would like to admit that I have never personally contacted Flying W, but I hold very high standards for breeders, and a high quantity of litters has always been a warning sign to me. I don't trust people who make part of their livelihood from breeding. If you do it right you lose money. :) In addition, on their website it says "Every home should have a Mastiff" I TOTALLY disagree with that, as I think that the amount of people who should have a giant breed (As in be prepared for their special needs) is in actuality very very small.Â
AND.... I don't trust the CKC as far as I can throw them, which would probably be pretty far if they were a tangible being, but as a corporation, they aren't and as such are incapable of being thrown.
For those newcomers here, I'm not a purist, or an elitist. I don't show (But have nothing against it), my dog is a goofy galumphing imbecile, lacking the elegant grace and alertness, that the standard calls for, and he'll never be bred. For those of you who have AMs, I wish you well with your puppies and I'm sure you'll enjoy them. The OP just asked why people have a problem with them, and I stated my issues. If someone asked me personally point blank if they should get one, honestly I would most likely try to dissuade them, however I wouldn't debase or chastise anyone who chose to bring one into their lives.Â
If they don't like your dog, screw 'em.Â
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It also bothers me that only a few places "carry" the AM. One almost exclusively
See there: the very thing that bothers some people is the very thing that encourages others--because to me that says that this particular breeder is being careful about her breeding lines and maintaining a strict oversight. (Or maybe she's taking a lesson from what happened with the foundation Shiloh kennel a few years ago. Talk about contentious people! ;))
I don't know that either an AM or an OEM is going to end up being on my short list of dogs--but it would be impossible for me to make any kind of reasonable judgement without the conversations around here. The more I learn, the longer I think it's going to take before I make a decision...
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It also bothers me that only a few places "carry" the AM. One almost exclusively
See there: the very thing that bothers some people is the very thing that encourages others--because to me that says that this particular breeder is being careful about her breeding lines and maintaining a strict oversight. (Or maybe she's taking a lesson from what happened with the foundation Shiloh kennel a few years ago. Talk about contentious people! ;))Â
I agree with stingent breeding guidelines. After all I have a Chinook, and you don't find those wandering around. (Oh wait I did, bad example). But I don't approve of Monopolizing. How's that? ;)
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I think a dog is a really personal decision. You should really research and decide what things you DON'T want in a dog as well as the traits you DO want. You can read 1000 posts with pro's and con's from either side (or any breed for that matter) and it just won't make a difference once you have your mind and heart set on a dog. :)
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I think most AM breeders point out the whole drool aspect not as drool free but with less drool. This is from one breeders site:
Quote
Fredericka Wagner of Flying W. Farm created the foundation stock of the American Mastiff, infusing Anatolian Mastiffs into the English lines.There is no need to carry a drool rag everywhere you go with an American Mastiff. They do drool, when excited and around food, but really no more than most any other breed of dog. That is a major plus in the live with quotient with these beautiful giants.
I have to tell you, Nola is an 11 month full-blooded OEM and the only time I have to wipe him down with a drool rag is after drinking or when he smells something delicious such as late night gyros. Even with your AM, you will always have to carry a drool rag. Sometimes the dog smells McDonald's, BK, etc. while riding in the car which will cause puddles of slobber to form.  It's really attractive to drive around with slingers on all the windows.
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I don't think that the AM is the problem. The problem is that these threads often degenerate into a "my dog is better than your dog"
pi@#%^g contest.
I have a mixed breed dog, and I have purebred dogs. I don't show, simply because I do not have the time nor the passion to do it well.
I picked my mix breed off of petfinders, because the breeds in combination intrigued me, and still do. But I do not consider him a breed, other than a mix. I would not have paid the price that I paid for my purebreds for him, although I love him dearly. If others choose to do so, whether it be designer dogs or fraudulent AKC champion offspring(the beagle that looks like a rat terrier but the owner has AKC Beagle registration papers from that lovely petstore down the street, and only for $1,000.00!), more power to them.
JMHO
Stella
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But I don't approve of Monopolizing.
See, and I do approve of it, at least with breeds that are new and essentially still proving out their standards.  Established breeds are a different kettle of fish.
It's been my impression as I've been researching that the 'new' breeds that have maintained their genetic integrity and stated standards the best have been those where one or two people have been fully committed to not only developing, but accurately DOCUMENTING the development, of the breed. I've also read some disturbing things with some new/developing breeds whose founders either died, gave up, or just lost control of their lines for various reasons. Â
AM's are still a pretty new breed--aren't they less than 20 generations out from the founding dogs? So that means there's still a lot to be learned about how the genetics are going to fall out in the long term. Which also means there's still a lot of documenting to do.
Clearly at some point some entity is going to have to take over--a breed founder isn't going to be around as long as the breed they developed, if they've developed it correctly. But I think that this early in the process, it's not a bad thing for the breed founder or a designated small group of breeders, to have a 'monopoly' on the lines. Â
If I eventually settle on a 'new' breed, one of my personal top criterion for choosing a breeder is how close a relationship to the 'founder' does the breeder have, and how well documented are litters (including what proportion of the litters are actually documented!), what are the statistics and the documentation showing issues like bad hips, bad hearts, etc. I would expect to see--even get copies of--ongoing and extensive documentation, so that 30 or 50 generations out, there would be statistical data regarding hips, eyes, color, drool factor, health issues, temperment or temperment problems, and whatever other traits the originator planned to breed for or out. And I don't know how someone could warrant the accuracy of such data unless they had a "monopoly" that gave them personal oversight.Â
This is all Just My Opinion again: but based on the research I've been doing, is that this approach to control and documentation is what sets a "Breed Developer" apart from a BYB Doodle nut.Â
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Maia-OEM-drools when she drinks, runs around a lot, chews a bone, or smells food.
Rocco-Newf/Rott mix when he drinks, runs around a lot, chews a bone, or smells food.
Brandy(my dad's dog)cocker/Dacshund mix-drools when she drinks or smells food.
Reese-lab-drools when she drinks, runs around a lot, chews a bone, or smells food.
All dogs drool, I have even seen cats drool.
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The American Masiff Breed Council was formed in 2002 to help protect and manage the breeding and proliferation of the Flying W Farm American Mastiff. The concern was that unscrupulous people would trade on the excellent reputation of the breed that Fredricka Wagner had developed for their own purposes or greed. There are actually 10 breeders that are AMBC approved. Frederika used to breed OEM and then began to breed AMs.
As far as the whole drool thing, as most of us who own or have owned rotties, there is a degree of drool with them as well. That wasnt the selling point with me. I just like the dogs I met and that was it.
I have to say this has been nice, no yelling or anger. Just people presenting their opinions and respecting others.
What a nice site.
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But I don't approve of Monopolizing.
See, and I do approve of it, at least with breeds that are new and essentially still proving out their standards.  Established breeds are a different kettle of fish.
It's been my impression as I've been researching that the 'new' breeds that have maintained their genetic integrity and stated standards the best have been those where one or two people have been fully committed to not only developing, but accurately DOCUMENTING the development, of the breed. I've also read some disturbing things with some new/developing breeds whose founders either died, gave up, or just lost control of their lines for various reasons. Â
AM's are still a pretty new breed--aren't they less than 20 generations out from the founding dogs? So that means there's still a lot to be learned about how the genetics are going to fall out in the long term. Which also means there's still a lot of documenting to do.
Clearly at some point some entity is going to have to take over--a breed founder isn't going to be around as long as the breed they developed, if they've developed it correctly. But I think that this early in the process, it's not a bad thing for the breed founder or a designated small group of breeders, to have a 'monopoly' on the lines. Â
If I eventually settle on a 'new' breed, one of my personal top criterion for choosing a breeder is how close a relationship to the 'founder' does the breeder have, and how well documented are litters (including what proportion of the litters are actually documented!), what are the statistics and the documentation showing issues like bad hips, bad hearts, etc. I would expect to see--even get copies of--ongoing and extensive documentation, so that 30 or 50 generations out, there would be statistical data regarding hips, eyes, color, drool factor, health issues, temperment or temperment problems, and whatever other traits the originator planned to breed for or out. And I don't know how someone could warrant the accuracy of such data unless they had a "monopoly" that gave them personal oversight.Â
This is all Just My Opinion again: but based on the research I've been doing, is that this approach to control and documentation is what sets a "Breed Developer" apart from a BYB Doodle nut.Â
I agree to a point. I think when a new breed is being established that every single litter should produced with immense forethought. That maybe a litter or two a year? When someone is churning out a ton of puppies they can't possibly be as discerning with their breedings. Just my opinion.
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That maybe a litter or two a year?
I think that all depends on how many dogs you're working with. I would say one litter per year per female is pretty responsible breeding. But it's possible, with enough dogs in your program, to have your program planned as much as 2 years in advance. If you have a female, for example, you may want to match her to 3 different males to introduce her genes to a broad spectrum of your program--this spring, next spring, spring after that. If a the first litter shows up some great dogs by age 2, you may want to repeat that breeding, which puts you out a third year.
I've read about kennels in some of the huntin fancies with 20 plus females in a breeding program. Just because a dog's in a breeding program doesn't mean it lives with the breeder. I've read that it's not uncommon for a breeder to agree to co-owning dogs that they've picked as a potential for their program, under the condition that if/when the dog's bred it's at their sole discretion, to a mate the breeder alone determines and females may come back to the breeder for the duration of the pregnancy and stay until her pups are ready to go home. Or perhaps comes to them for the breeding, but is allowed to gestate, deliver and raise at home, with the breeder visiting regularly. Usually, pups are the breeder's to determine homes for--I haven't really read about joint decisions, but I suppose they're out there. Pups apparently stay with mom till they're weaned, go to the breeder for a couple of weeks for intensive socialization and evaluation (some hunting breeds even a little initial bird training), and then go to their permanent homes.
I'm just saying these are some of the things I've read that are done in some cases by some breeders. I'm not advocating it as the way it should be done; but I don't see that it's a bad way to do it, especially if you're working with a new breed like the AM and are trying to a--control your lines; b--manage your data and c--provide people with well bred, healthy puppies.
I totally understand that it's a HUGE heads up when someone always has puppies on the ground, and I would be doing a lot of background checking if I discovered a breeder I was interested in did always have pups. I'd want to talk to an awful lot of people as to what was going on--I would never take someone's word on it. I'd want to talk to every person who had a dog in the person's breeding program, and see evidence that this is what was actually happening--that's why I won't ever buy a dog without visiting the breeder regularly over the course of a number of months. However, this kind of arrangement does go on, and it means that there ARE a very, very few breeders who have pups almost all the time who aren't actually puppy milling BYBs.
99.9 percent of them are PM/BYB's, though. Which is why you can't trust anyone.
All this is why I'm finding it's such a long process to research a breed, research the fancy, research a breeder...
Lately, I'm thinking I'll never know enough to buy a puppy. I'm thinking that I'll just stick with the biggest dog at the animal shelter that 'calls' to me. ;)
That's if I ever find a place where I can have a dog at all. I went and looked at a place this weekend, and it was just too sketchy for words. If I'd moved there, I'd have had to get a trained cockroach hunter!
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I am enjoying this discussion. You guys are very knowledgable and thoughtful on this subject!!! :)
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I think that we have had this discussion enough times that it is getting old. In my humble opinion .... I dont think that anyone would have gotten an AM without having loved OEM's first (and I still do!). They are a little different ... but they are also very similar.
I believe that the point should be RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH! Know as much about the dog you are interested in as possible and avoid at all cost impulse decisions. Only with careful RESEARCH and a realistic appraisal of your wants and needs (not to mention always meeting several of the breed and perferably the parents of your puppy) should you decide on a particular dog.
In short .... know what you are getting into and you will not be suprised (unpleasantly) or disappointed later.
Matthew and Goliath
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I know some of you think this subject has been beaten to death, but it's a real blessing for us new members. I have been researching myself to death. Reading this thread has been very enlighting. I am on a waiting list for an AM though I did research on both AM and OEM. They are both beautiful. I'd kiss them both on the mouth drool and all. I do see the AM as a mutt. But so am I, and I turned out okay.
Thank you all for your input. It really does help.
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[quote author=kkmuller link=topic=7397.msg107722#msg107722 date=1142569530
 I'd kiss them both on the mouth drool and all. I do see the AM as a mutt. But so am I, and I turned out okay
That is fantastic! ;D I truely love your perspective on the subject!...Bless you! :)
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I don't know ..... I'm not fond of poodles ..... but to each their own. ;)
Matthew
It was Newfie & Great Pyr that were crossed with the smooth coated St.'s..Ty! :P ;D lol!
Please forgive me oh mighty Great Pyrenees, how could I not give you the credit you so rightfully deserve? My apologies forever... I shall now on double-check and cross-reference all my sources for canine history!!
;)
I thought that combo was what made up the Leonberger and only the Newfie was used to re-strengthen the Saints genepool? Too much to remember. Whatever, I love all dogs, even ugly mutts and foofy poodles. I agree with people's concern and wariness about genetic meddling and puppy milling, although I don't know anything about this AM issue, so I won't pretend to understand.
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I don't know ..... I'm not fond of poodles ..... but to each their own. ;)
Matthew
:o You sound just like my hubby. he informed me that if I got a poodle he wouldn't exercise it because he didn't want to be seen walking a "girly" dog. ::)
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My husband said the same thing until we got Rookie our male Standard Poodle. He's 55 lbs at 4 months and there's nothing "foofy" about him! ;)
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Hahaha........ .....I'm actually the one that said absolutely no poodles to my husband. His last 3 dogs have been miniature poodles....... .lol
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I want a white standard and just to mess with hubby, I'm painting her toenails bright red! :P
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I want a white standard and just to mess with hubby, I'm painting her toenails bright red!
Haha.......... ...why don't you go one better and do this?
http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?i=109511&j=t
Keep in mind this is a male dog. :o :o
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That is too funny! :D
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I want a white standard and just to mess with hubby, I'm painting her toenails bright red! Â
Haha.......... ...why don't you go one better and do this?
http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?i=109511&j=t
Keep in mind this is a male dog.  :o :o
That's funny but I'm just nopt that mean. To the dog that is! ;D Can you imagine how embarrassed that poor thing is running around town?! I've seen too many dogs after they've been "dressed up" to believe they don't have feelings and opinions about the whole thing. :D