Author Topic: When to neuter?  (Read 14783 times)

Offline PennyK

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When to neuter?
« on: July 28, 2006, 05:48:23 am »
Teddy is going on to 7 months shortly and our vet has been insisting that we get him neutered ASAP! 

I have stated to the vet that I would like to wait until Teddy is closer to a year old before we do this. (This is only based on things I have read about big paws)  The vet goes on and on about how they have proved that neutering at 6 months as opposed to a year has nothing to do with a dog's development.

I am still determined to wait (until at least late fall when the bugs are not out!) even though the vet seems miffed at me.

Does anyone have any stories (good or bad) about early or late neutering?  Any "facts" regarding growth or development being affected (or not) due to neutering?
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Offline Saint and Mal mom

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2006, 05:53:46 am »
My dogs were spayed later than is usually recommended but there is nothing wrong with them or anything. I think anytime you do it is fine. If you're not going to breed them, bottom line is it needs to be done. But I'm not picky on age unless they're too young for the surgery. But that's just my opinion.
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Offline seaherons

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2006, 06:51:07 am »
I posted this link previously however am posting it again.  There are considerations to think about that are often not disclosed by vets. Any comments???

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

Offline NoDogNow

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2006, 08:05:23 am »
Why does your vet have such a....case...ab out when Teddy gets the snip?  Seems pretty pushy to me. 

I have real issues with the whole 'standard early neuter' theory, personally, so you you know that up front. IMO, a lot of great dogs could contribute a lot to their breeds have been essentially culled because of this practice in recent years. And until a dog has reached adulthood, you don't really KNOW how it's turned out. While there are some medical advantages to the early 'fix', the up thread link shows that there are also disadvantages.

I think that every animal is a separate case, and you have to take all the factors of your life into consideration.

There's also the whole question of showing for example. Is that something you think you might be interested in? Even if Teddy didn't win, (but he would!) you can hang out with other saint owners just for fun. :) But in order to show, he's got to be intact. Really think about what you might want to try with him down the road. My aunt's first saint, Misty, didn't start showing until she was 3, but she earned her championship over time, and they had a blast at shows. Heck, there were dogs who made the televised group ring at the National this year who are 6, 7, even 8 years old. I for one would love to see Teddy trotting around a Animal Planet show ring. ;)
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Offline PennyK

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2006, 09:30:52 am »
I think showing would be fun (it in my blood, my mother who died when I was very young, showed Afgahn Hounds)but Teddy is from a BYB and has no papers.  Doesn't make me love him any less!! ;)

I just want to do what is right for his health and development.  I truely want to wait until he is close to a year before we neuter - just my personal preference after reading as much about the issue as I can.

Ohh.......and another direction of the same type of question...... ......when can I expect him to take notice of his sexuality?  Marking territory, lifting his leg, and loving other people's legs?  LOL!
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Offline My Friend Joey

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2006, 10:23:31 am »
I was a "greenhorn", when I adopted Joey. What I mean is, I grew up with lots of dogs but I didn't have to take care of them much... I just enjoyed them because I was a kid. When I adopted Joey, I realized that all of the responsiblity fell on me. He was a young male, spoiled by his Foster Home, not neutered, clever and dominent by nature. Everyone was "on my back", including the woman who ran "obedience training", where I took him, to have him Neutered...Joe y was 5 months old then. Anyway, I'm glad I didn't listen. I listened instead, to his original VET, who had know him since he was a little "fluffball", ( I phoned her up), and she said she was in favour of leaving it until a year when he would have acheived all of his lovely male traits..the big mane of fur around his neck etc. So I did...he was just shy of 1 year old when I had it done. Something else people always told me, was that it would make him better behaved...it didn't. It's not a quick fix for behavior either. He may have stopped getting so friendly with certain people when they came over, but he is still clever and bratty...in a cute way of course!!! ;D
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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006, 10:41:43 am »
Merlin was nuetered at 18 months. It was expensive, harder on him, and required longer recovery. He developed an infection, dehised the incision reqiuring another trip, this time to an emergency vet. Unfamilar with him they required that we not be in the room when they restitched him. Consequentiall y he threw himself around so much that he split his chin open, requiring stitches there as well. That was a 400.00 trip to the vet alone, including the pain medicine and antibiotics.

Strider was done at 6 months and never looked back after the second day.

It depends on the dog, I think. Although we all want our dogs to be the best they can be, I could care less if Strider would have been one inch taller and 10 LBs heavier if I left him for another year. He is not a show dog, so the only one he has to impress is me.
Stella

Offline My Friend Joey

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2006, 10:47:56 am »
I'm sorry your Merlin had a bad time.
Georgi
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Offline saintbarney

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2006, 04:39:22 pm »
I guess I'm the odd one here. :) I got Barney neutered when he was 4 1/2 months old. I am so involved in rescue and work for a spay & neuter clinic that I think I have become obsessed with spay/neuter. Also working at the clinic I have learned enough about juvenile spay/neuter that I had no qualms about getting him done at 4 1/2 months. I did wonder afterwards if maybe he won't grow as big but there was no way I was going to let him stay unaltered for a whole year just to have a bigger dog. The last thing I want is a big huge Saint marking in the house or displaying other unwanted male behaviors! I also didn't want to take the chance that he might wander off our property in search of a female in heat.
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Offline MagicM3

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2006, 06:18:20 pm »
That is a very interesting article,I have never been big on getting it done early just my personal O
I do think that they need their hormones intact to become stable physically and mentally an adult.Although I have done it both ways,with no ill effects that I know of.
I have to admitt that I have never heard of a dog getting their tubes tied or a vascetomy.
What a thought,something I am going to ck out with my vet,.
Behaviours I'm not worried about,to me that has more to do with training and what is allowed and not allowed.
Either way they wouldn't be producing any unwanted pups and that is most important in this day and age.

Lyn

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2006, 04:34:05 am »
Bubba is 18 months and not yet neutered. He will be done at 24 months give or take per advice from a breeder. I don't think there is anything wrong with leaving them intact to mature as long as you are responsible.

Bubba is NEVER left alone outside, our yard is fenced but my stupid irresponsible neigbours allow their 'in heat' female dogs to run loose. ::)

I've noticed small behaviour changes really.. alerting us to strangers on our property. He'll let out a woof. I found it annoying until the night someone was trying to steal our truck. Then I realized that behaviour wasn't so bad. ;) He was very quiet before. That could have to do with his age though and have nothing to do with him being intact.

No aggression or humping nothing like that though or he would have had the big snip regardless of his age. He did recently realized that he could lift his leg to pee. He does it occasionally but most of the time he still squats.

I do want to have Bubba done though before Lola matures. I definitely don't want to deal with having to keep them seperate. I'm still deciding on whether I want to wait until 2 to spay Lola. I'm not sure whether I could deal with the mess. The males are so much easier in that regard, just keep them under proper supervision and away from females in heat.

I wouldn't keep them intact just for looks.. it was recommended to me for the reasons MagicM3 mentioned. Basically to become physically and mentally mature. If people need hormones to mature properly why wouldn't dogs right? 

Offline lshelley21

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2006, 04:47:10 am »
You know, i rescued jaz and she was spayed at 6 months old, but i also own ferrets too. Ferrets are spayed/neutered 3 days after birth. Because they do this so early in life, 90% of ferrets die before there due time due to adrenal disease. This is not only in ferrets. It happens in dogs and cats. If people neuter too early the hormones do not develop at all and the fact of more medical problems do exist.  I am not saying don't neuter... i am saying if you wait until the hormones are developed you have a better chance of not having hormonal based medical issues.
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Offline sc.trojans

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2006, 04:58:20 am »

This is sadly becoming such a difficult decision for so many and I wish it didn't prove to be so challenging. But the fact of the matter is there is very very little scientific study on the subject that "proves" much for either side of the argument. Until there is, it will be controversial. In the meantime, everyone elects what they read and want to follow - not a bad thing in lieu of any credible information.

Many against early spay quote Chris Zink, who has compelling arguments, but likes to cite a lot "research" here and there that is highly misleading and over-stated. Vets on the other side however also like to say things like "proven to have no affect". This is no more compelling or substantiated.

The only broad and credible study we have states that spayed animals will grow 1/4" longer in the long bones (legs)and therefore be "slightly taller". There is no evidence it is any more significant than this. Many agree that the lankier look in many large dogs is a telltale sign of spay. Now if you are highly involved in performance events (agility, flyball etc.) then this can be very meaningful. If not, it is highly unlikely this will matter.  This long bone growth is why Zink recommends waiting until 13-14 months - when the long bone is generally finished growing (although the growth plates often have not closed).  Much more goes into structural health and performance - the structure of the dog and how well the dog meets its breed standard is most critical here. If you have a dog with poor angulation in the rear, it won't matter when you spay - he will still be at risk for physical injury.

Hormones certainly play a clear role in the degree of masculinity and femininity in the dog - this is mostly expression/face, breadth etc.  Spay does not affect other skeletal growth - size of head - or coat growth.

If your concern is health however, there is growing intuitive belief that the immune system is best developed and regulated with hormones intact - although no studies have been performed in canines.  We know that in humans, a child that loses her adrenal glands early receives significant hormone treatments to carefully manage growth and normal development. It stands to reason that the canine is better off not having its hormones removed prior to immune system maturity - in large breeds this occurs at about 9-10 months of age.

I am a big proponent of spay/neuter and think it is important societally.  I have had dogs spayed at 8 weeks and 6 months and everything in between.  I have never waited longer.  If I get increasingly larger dogs (who take longer to mature including the immune system), I will likely feel compelled to wait until after 10 months to do so in the future strictly for immune health.  I am not concerned about physical development since I am not a breeder and do not show. I focus instead on acquiring a dog with sound structure that meets the breed standard (often not possible in rescue) and if I don't and am aware of structural weakness - I will be more careful and watch this dog for injury.

I agree with most posts here already - the performance considerations, the importance of spay/neuter, and most importantly, the tremendous difference in recovery time and risk of complications the older the animal is.  At 8 weeks old, they are playing 2 hours later. At 4 months old, they are playing the next day.  And at over a year, the risk of complication and degree of pain is much much higher.

In the end, I think you should do what your heart and inclination is - otherwise you can only regret. If you are comfortable with waiting a bit longer, do not have behavioral issues or raging hormones, and are a responsible owner, then do what makes you most comfortable.
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Offline wolfsoul

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2006, 06:11:36 am »
It is my opinion that a large breed dog should wait until after it's physical development before being spayed/neutered. My vet is holistic and so she does alot of research and has taken alot of courses that most conventional vets won't. She participated in a study that showed that large breed dogs (particularily rottweilers), when neutered under two years of age, had a higher chance of developing bone cancer than a dog that wasn't neutered until after two years of age had of developing cancer of the sexual organs. I believe that bone cancer is harder to treat than testicular/prostate/uterine etc cancers. If the person in question has a history of letting their dogs stray or not being very controlling of their dogs, I always say neutering early is better, as it's my belief that one dog with bone cancer is better than several accidental (or even unaccidental but badly bred) puppies being born. But if the person isa good owner and has good control of their dog, I say wait! :) It's well worth it in my opinion. My dog is 3 years of age an unspayed and I've never had a dog with such a well-fitted body.


Offline chaos270

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Re: When to neuter?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2006, 01:41:00 pm »
I think it depends on their attitudes.  If Teddy is well behaved and shows no tendencies towards aggression than wait until around a year as you'd like to.  If he shows ANY signs of aggressive behaviour take him in for the neuter.  My vet has a very aggressive male Saint from a BYB that got aggressive around the 7.5-8 month old stage.  She waited too long to neuter and now the aggressiveness is hard to reverse.  He cannot be around any dogs except for mine and their other dogs as he will attack them and anything in the way.  We spayed both of our girls around 6 months and they are fine.  I don't mean to scare you into believing Teddy will be the same way but it is something to watch out for.  Good Luck and I'm sure you'll make the best decision for you and Teddy.
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