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Dinty Moore the Newf!
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Hoping against hope for another option
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Hoping against hope for another option« on: August 04, 2006, 10:02:38 AM »
We're having a lot of problems with Katie. She has been viciously attacking Carter almost daily now. She attacked him a lot when she first came but it wasn't this vicious and we figured they'd work it out. It let off for quite a while and the attacks were rare, they played together and seemed to have worked out their differences. Now she's back at it. Any slight infraction on his part (always unintentional, he has not a mean bone in his body) will yield a full blown attack from her. He's mostly deaf so he doesn't hear her warnings (sometimes there is a warning growl, sometimes she just attacks). It is getting to the point where I am concerned with the kids (or even myself) getting stuck in the middle. I'm about ready to contact her prior owners and send her back I'm getting so frustrated. Here's hoping someone has some brilliant ideas. 
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Gosh I don't know Daphne...I do know that really sucks though!...'specially if it isn't being provoked at all...I had problems like that with Sam & Pippin but Sammy was asking for it...It finally quit when Sam learned his place...It is even harder because Carter is hearing impaired it will be ahrd to jsut let them work it out...How does she act towards you & the kids?...If I can get ahold of our trainer I will let you know what he says.
Re: Hoping against hope for another option« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2006, 11:11:08 AM »
She wants ALL the attention. Giving her more, first, whatever isn't enough. She doesn't want him to have ANY attention. If I try to pet him at all, she'll try to get in there and pick a fight. Same with the kids. He's such a doofus that he has no idea that she's getting mad. He is Marley, the Lab from the book Marley and Me. He's just completely oblivious except that he knows she's nasty so he really tries to watch her body language. She's really good with me and the kids as long as Carter isn't in sight. If he's in sight, she watches him like a hawk for a reason to attack. It is disconcerting to say the least. I'm sick to my stomach trying to figure a way around this but I really can't separate her or figure out another option.
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Re: Hoping against hope for another option« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2006, 01:03:29 PM »
I'm not sure what to day except that if someone can take over they will,
Magic knows that I am the *alpha bitch * in this pack and so do all the others,and most times all I need do is move toward the group that doing something not allowed and it stops.
When one is picking on another my usual response is the following. That one gets put in a subsmissive back or side,while the one that was being picked on gets to sniff and is encouraged to come and make friends.the whole time I am making it clear even if I have to hold them down,that I am the one in charge and what I say goes.
It sounds a lot worse than it is,and I don't do any yelling or even talking if I can help it.
Calm submision is what I want and I expect it and it usually happens.
Before doing anything drastic I would try to get someone in your area that can obseve the situtation,and be more objective,especially if you can't be.
It's hard when your heart is in your throat.I have been there many times in the past until I planned it out ahead of time knowing what was going to happen,just took charge.
Whatever mistakes I make or made didn't really matter,as long as no one got hurt,and I was acknowledged as the leader of the pack.
It is pretty cool when something happens (unexpected) and they all look at me first before making a move to do anything.
Get help if you need it,they are all worth the effort.
Tricia/Magic
Magic knows that I am the *alpha bitch * in this pack and so do all the others,and most times all I need do is move toward the group that doing something not allowed and it stops.
When one is picking on another my usual response is the following. That one gets put in a subsmissive back or side,while the one that was being picked on gets to sniff and is encouraged to come and make friends.the whole time I am making it clear even if I have to hold them down,that I am the one in charge and what I say goes.
It sounds a lot worse than it is,and I don't do any yelling or even talking if I can help it.
Calm submision is what I want and I expect it and it usually happens.
Before doing anything drastic I would try to get someone in your area that can obseve the situtation,and be more objective,especially if you can't be.
It's hard when your heart is in your throat.I have been there many times in the past until I planned it out ahead of time knowing what was going to happen,just took charge.
Whatever mistakes I make or made didn't really matter,as long as no one got hurt,and I was acknowledged as the leader of the pack.
It is pretty cool when something happens (unexpected) and they all look at me first before making a move to do anything.
Get help if you need it,they are all worth the effort.
Tricia/Magic
Re: Hoping against hope for another option« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2006, 01:53:55 PM »
I think Trisha may have a key here. I think this may be less about her being alpha over Carter than it is about reteaching her that YOU are the alpha over everybody. She's forgotten that.
It sounds like Katie's trying to guard against Carter--maybe she's reacting to his deafness as if it were a danger to the pack. Reinforce with her that YOU are the boss in your pack, and if you want Carter there, then he's going to be there. Every time she even looks crosseyed at him, correct her. For the next month or two, force the issue, especially with treats and affection. She doesn't get them except when Carter is present and she's being calm and submissive. If she makes any kind of agressive move whatsoever, immediately isolate her and don't let anyone interact with her for several minutes after she calms.
Max is an only dog, but my sister's two are at my parents' several times a week and since they got a new puppy a couple of weeks ago, Mom's been having a similar struggle with him--he suddenly doesn't want anybody petted in his house but him. She's been correcting him every time, and using a 2 foot lead to tether him to the dining room table, where he can see everything that's going on, but can't be involved until he's let off his lead. She corrects him, tethers him, and then proceeds to pet and snuggle both the other dogs until Max stops barking and throwing a fit and lays down quietly while she pets the other dogs. When he's quiet, she gives him lovies and then lets him loose--until he causes a problem again. Then it's back to the tether.
Max is an extra stubborn Eskie, so the table tether works for him because he's too small to move the table across the deep shag carpet in the dining room, but look for a way to isolate Katie from the flow of things when she's misbehaving that allows her to observe everyone else accepting Carter. This way, it reinforces that YOU decide who gets accepted, not her; and that she gets to be loose and be part of things only when she doesn't pick on other members of YOUR pack.
It sounds like Katie's trying to guard against Carter--maybe she's reacting to his deafness as if it were a danger to the pack. Reinforce with her that YOU are the boss in your pack, and if you want Carter there, then he's going to be there. Every time she even looks crosseyed at him, correct her. For the next month or two, force the issue, especially with treats and affection. She doesn't get them except when Carter is present and she's being calm and submissive. If she makes any kind of agressive move whatsoever, immediately isolate her and don't let anyone interact with her for several minutes after she calms.
Max is an only dog, but my sister's two are at my parents' several times a week and since they got a new puppy a couple of weeks ago, Mom's been having a similar struggle with him--he suddenly doesn't want anybody petted in his house but him. She's been correcting him every time, and using a 2 foot lead to tether him to the dining room table, where he can see everything that's going on, but can't be involved until he's let off his lead. She corrects him, tethers him, and then proceeds to pet and snuggle both the other dogs until Max stops barking and throwing a fit and lays down quietly while she pets the other dogs. When he's quiet, she gives him lovies and then lets him loose--until he causes a problem again. Then it's back to the tether.
Max is an extra stubborn Eskie, so the table tether works for him because he's too small to move the table across the deep shag carpet in the dining room, but look for a way to isolate Katie from the flow of things when she's misbehaving that allows her to observe everyone else accepting Carter. This way, it reinforces that YOU decide who gets accepted, not her; and that she gets to be loose and be part of things only when she doesn't pick on other members of YOUR pack.
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I don't have any words of wisdom, but I am thinking about you and hoping the situation gets better for you one way or another.
She's really good with me and the kids as long as Carter isn't in sight. If he's in sight, she watches him like a hawk for a reason to attack. It is disconcerting to say the least. I'm sick to my stomach trying to figure a way around this but I really can't separate her or figure out another option.
Does she think carter is a threat & is protecting you guys?...Dogs can sense things we can't...Would his hearing impairment be setting her on gaurd because he doesn't react to things like a dog that hears well might & maybe she doesn't understand this?
Re: Hoping against hope for another option« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2006, 04:20:29 PM »
I don't think she sees Carter as a threat. She doesn't seem to act like that in any way. If I'm brushing him, she'll come up wagging, then when she is close enough, she figures she can get in his face about not submitting. Basically, I have to lock her up if I need to brush him. I have not been impressed with having her growl with my face inches away. About 1/3 of her attacks are when I am out there. Unfortunately the other 2/3 are when they are out there alone which is a lot more of the time. That is one big part of the problem. These are working LGDs. They are supposed to be working independently. Everything I've been reading and what I see people here saying is basically, don't let them be together unless you are there controlling the interaction. That just is not possible for this situation and it seems like the more I correct her behavior, the more she is determined to make Carter pay for it afterwards. It just seems like blatant jealousy for lack of a better way of describing it.
I confess to being more than a little annoyed with the prior owners. I very specifically asked if she was dog aggressive and they led me to believe that she was not. They said she was dominant to their female lab but played with her too (sent pics of that) and that she got along well with their male Pyr. They did NOT tell me that they had another younger female Pyr, that the Lab had puppies, etc. I didn't find out those things until after she was here already. The more I find out, the more holes there are in the story I got from them.
I confess to being more than a little annoyed with the prior owners. I very specifically asked if she was dog aggressive and they led me to believe that she was not. They said she was dominant to their female lab but played with her too (sent pics of that) and that she got along well with their male Pyr. They did NOT tell me that they had another younger female Pyr, that the Lab had puppies, etc. I didn't find out those things until after she was here already. The more I find out, the more holes there are in the story I got from them.
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I don't think she sees Carter as a threat. She doesn't seem to act like that in any way. If I'm brushing him, she'll come up wagging, then when she is close enough, she figures she can get in his face about not submitting. Basically, I have to lock her up if I need to brush him. I have not been impressed with having her growl with my face inches away. About 1/3 of her attacks are when I am out there. Unfortunately the other 2/3 are when they are out there alone which is a lot more of the time. That is one big part of the problem. These are working LGDs. They are supposed to be working independently. Everything I've been reading and what I see people here saying is basically, don't let them be together unless you are there controlling the interaction. That just is not possible for this situation and it seems like the more I correct her behavior, the more she is determined to make Carter pay for it afterwards. It just seems like blatant jealousy for lack of a better way of describing it.
I confess to being more than a little annoyed with the prior owners. I very specifically asked if she was dog aggressive and they led me to believe that she was not. They said she was dominant to their female lab but played with her too (sent pics of that) and that she got along well with their male Pyr. They did NOT tell me that they had another younger female Pyr, that the Lab had puppies, etc. I didn't find out those things until after she was here already. The more I find out, the more holes there are in the story I got from them.
I confess to being more than a little annoyed with the prior owners. I very specifically asked if she was dog aggressive and they led me to believe that she was not. They said she was dominant to their female lab but played with her too (sent pics of that) and that she got along well with their male Pyr. They did NOT tell me that they had another younger female Pyr, that the Lab had puppies, etc. I didn't find out those things until after she was here already. The more I find out, the more holes there are in the story I got from them.
This is what scares me about rescue. Now you love her, and you are in a painful situation. I wish people would be more honest when rehoming a pet. I'm sure most people are, but that is just an AWFUL thing to do to a nice, loving person who is trying to do a good thing. It isn't good for the dog either.
I hope you can work something out.
I'm so sorry....
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