Bernese Hot Spots

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  Bernese Hot Spots
« on: January 03, 2007, 06:56:53 PM »

Peter
Rank: Gnawer
Posts: 1

We are having a terrible problem with our male Bernese Mountain dog and hot spots on his hind quarters and tail. We have tried everything from food to shaving to medication. Does anybody have any answers?

Thanks,
peter

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  Re: Bernese Hot Spots
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2007, 06:59:35 PM »

schelmischekitty
Rank: Chief "All Knowing"
Posts: 2327


have you tried cortisone?  also, have you given him a bath lately?  sometimes if you leave even just a little shampoo on them, i can't look like a hotspot.  here's a link to a good page about hot spots. it says most are bacteria related, have you tried an antibiotic ointment?  this is a quote from that site too, you might find it helpful.

In some cases, adding a supplement such as DermCaps, a popular Omega Fatty Acid supplement with a number of beneficial ingredients, is the key factor in avoiding repeated episodes of Hot Spots and other skin afflictions.  If your dog or cat seems to lack good coat and skin health, consider upgrading the diet to a meat-based ingredient formula and adding a supplement such as DermCaps. 

http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/hotspots.html

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« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 07:04:45 PM by schelmischekitty »
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  Re: Bernese Hot Spots
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 11:24:17 PM »

sc.trojans
Rank: Big Paws-a-holic
Posts: 329



Whatever you do, please do not allow a vet to give cortisone or prednisone - these steroids are as harmful for them as they are for us.  Steroids are designed to suppress the immune system so it cannot react and express symptoms - such as hotspots.  This is not a cure - but a symptom suppressor and the problem will rise again, elsewhere and usually worse.

Bernese Mtn dogs are an immune suppressed breed to start with - very immune fragile and therefore prone to auto-immune disease. This is the problem at its core here.

The skin is commonly referred to as the third kidney in medical terms.  It, like the kidney and liver, expels from the body.  All skin inflammation is, whether it be acne, hives, hotspots etc. is the skin expelling something.  The object is to facilitate this process, not suppress it and drive it further into the body.

Diet is key to this - but it cannot address alone if the immune system is still being assaulted with toxins the body is trying to expel.  Since Berners are so sensitive to this to begin with, hotspots are very common in this breed when it is subjected to a lot of chemicals or toxins.

So what chemicals and toxins are often at the root?  Topical pesticides such as flea and tick chemicals that are absorbed into the skin and bloodstream, heartworm pesticides that are ingested, vaccines that contain disease and chemical adjuvants, lawn pesticides and chemical fertilizers, chemicals used in the home including detergents used on flooring and materials our dogs come into contact with and the list goes on.  I primarily listed them in order of problem for this breed with the first 4 being huge.

The more chemicals a Berner immune system is assaulted with, the more the body will work to expel.  Eliminate these and facilitate the detox process and you will see these cease.  If they don't, there is an auto-immune process in effect that must be addressed.

Good luck!

SC Trojans
with Gracie and Skylar


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  Re: Bernese Hot Spots
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2007, 12:26:26 PM »

baggins
Rank: Gnawer
Posts: 22

I understand and believe that diet plays a huge role in the autoammune issues with dogs--especially bernese.  But, do you honestly not give your dog any vaccines or heartworm medication (heartguard, revolution, interceptor, etc) because of this?  If you do, then how often do you interact with other animals at dog parks, etc?  I have met breeders who believe in the holistic approach to animal care but at some point it seems extreme. 

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  Re: Bernese Hot Spots
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2007, 04:02:12 PM »

People Whisperer
Rank: Supreme Drooler
Posts: 1975


I understand and believe that diet plays a huge role in the autoammune issues with dogs--especially bernese.  But, do you honestly not give your dog any vaccines or heartworm medication (heartguard, revolution, interceptor, etc) because of this?  If you do, then how often do you interact with other animals at dog parks, etc?  I have met breeders who believe in the holistic approach to animal care but at some point it seems extreme. 
I don't give my dog any heartworm medication.
If your dog has a strong immune system he/she will not get heartworms. If you do a little of reasearch about heartworm sycle and development you would realize how easy it is to make sute that your dog is not infected with heartworms. Heartguard and other stuff is not a "preventive" is a cure. Bacically, you kill heartworms that do not exist in your dog every month and therefore supress an immune system.
About vaccination... I think we are talking about minimum vaccination schedule and not the elimination of it. It's very simple... Get only core vaccine (distemper, parvo, rabbies), do not do booster shots, and avoid lyme, coronavirus and other not core vaccine that your vet recommends.
Bacically, we have to be informed when we go to the vet.
This is just my opinion based on my own research.



"To once own a Great Pyrenees is to love and want one always."
Mary W. Crane

I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it Smiley



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  Re: Bernese Hot Spots
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2007, 06:41:48 PM »

baggins
Rank: Gnawer
Posts: 22

What about the monthly kennel cough (bordetella)?  That's required by all kennels around here before they will take the dogs.

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  Re: Bernese Hot Spots
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2007, 01:03:35 AM »

sc.trojans
Rank: Big Paws-a-holic
Posts: 329



I agree.....the more you study about these individual conditions (i.e., heartworm, parvo etc.) the more you will feel empowered to manage them differently and more safely for your canine.

The heartworm cycle is a great example - the more you understand what is required to infect, the more empowered you will be to manage it. Those heartworm drugs are pesticides - carcinogenic pesticides regulated by the EPA.  They are NOT "preventatives" - they work by being ever present in the system as an active poison, so that if and when your dog contracts heartworms and larvae develop, the poison kills them.  Why not just take extra precautions to not let your dog get bit by mosquitos (do not leave your dog out at night for instance) and test yearly for heartworm (twice yearly if you are in an infested area).  If larvae develop, then treat - this is very treatable.

As to your question baggins:  yes, I honestly do not give my Berners any chemicals, toxins, or adjuvants in their system.  This highly inbred breed, with serious immune dysfunction already carries vaccine damage from prior generations. Memory t-cells are often passed down as well. Some choose minimal vaccines, some choose absolutely none. I do not give vaccines out of fear - I would only vaccinate for true risk in my geographic area. My Berner here had one parvo shot at 12 weeks of age.  I would never give a distemper shot - it is not in my city/community and it is a disease that primarily affects kennels, shelters and other close quarters since it is an airborne disease with a very short life span. It is a neurological vaccine with serious side effects and I would rather manage my risk than inject that disease.  Despite never having had a distemper shot, my Berner registers high titers for the disease anyway - she has been exposed to the disease pathogen and mounted antibodies for them.

This is my answer to your other question:  On the contrary, since I didn't have a vaccinated puppy, I took her everywhere, and I exposed her to as many other young dogs as possible (that I knew were healthy and not diseased of course).  No I do not frequent dog parks for behavioral and socialization reasons - but she went to many public parks and play dates with dogs.  I built her immune system through natural exposure.  Vets often tell you not to take your puppy out and the reason for this is because your vaccinated puppy has an immune system that is now tied up with or grappling with the vaccine it just received - the immune system is responding to it and consumed with mounting a defense to it and commiting it to memory. If the same system were to encounter another disease or virus, it would be at risk for succumbing as a result - it can only do so much at one time.  A completely unvaccinated puppy is not subject to this, and therefore I was in a better position to take her out everywhere - and given her titer levels her body does in fact recognize distemper.

Remember that the only vaccine required by law is rabies.

Bordatella is not a core vaccine and is not fatal - there is no reason to vaccinate for something that is not an issue if contracted to begin with - this is a kennel cough vaccine with many known side effects and problems.  I would never board my dogs in a kennel (see distemper discussion above) and I have never owned a dog who got kennel cough.  If one did however, treating it would not be a problem.

The bottom line - it is a healthy immune system that fends off or defeats disease - not a vaccine.  A vaccine is the disease and may or may not pose a problem or overwhelm the system.   Depending on where you live and what true risks are present, you may need to consider a vaccine for something....b ut not multiple vaccines and not combo shots - never good.

Natural rearing may seem extreme to you if it sounds new or dramatically different.  But to someone who has experience with the problems these man-made poisons, pesticides, chemicals, and toxins can do it is not extreme at all.  It is the way it used to be done, when the cancer rate was a fraction of what it is today in canines.  The average lifespan of a Berner is lower in the U.S. than anywhere in the world.  The use and mass marketing of vaccines, pesticides, and "preventatives" is more widespread in the U.S. than anywhere else in the world. What else can I say?


SC Trojans
with Gracie and Skylar


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  Re: Bernese Hot Spots
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2007, 02:20:45 PM »

baggins
Rank: Gnawer
Posts: 22

Wow, thank you for your insightful comments.  I have decided to not give my bernese heartworm medication..in fact, my vet said he really only recommends it from may-oct in colorado due to the weather.  It just makes common sense to treat it if the dog gets it rather than always having a toxic "just in case" in their system (which I've been thinking about for awhile now).  The dog has been vaccinated with the normal puppy shots so I can't do anything about that, but the bordatella is required by all kennels so if we have to board him then i guess we'll have to give him that shot.  Thanks again!

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  Re: Bernese Hot Spots
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2007, 12:53:43 PM »

People Whisperer
Rank: Supreme Drooler
Posts: 1975


I'm going to be the voice of dissent here and say that I would definitely protect against heartworms, at least during the most active mosquito season.  Having had a foster dog undergo treatment for heartworms, I can tell you that it is a very scary and serious thing. 

Although some of the chemicals used to treat a dog after it has contracted heartworms are the same as those used in the preventative drugs, they tend to be at a higher doseage.  Some of the other drugs used to treat heartworms are much more harsh on the body.  A dog already infected with heartworms also runs the risk of blood clots, congestive heart failure, and even the dead worms blocking the flow of blood during treatment.  The treatment is not just take a pill and go on your way, like the maintenance drugs.  Heartworm treatment involves keeping your dog quiet 24 hours a day and watching him/her like non-stop.  The treatment is also quite expensive and many dogs require more than one round.

The decision is ultimately up to you of course, but as someone who has been there, I wouldn't risk it for anything.  I am all for natural preventatives and treatments, but heartworm is something I just would not chance.     
If you do a test twice a year and at some point find out that your dog tested heartworm positive it doesn't mean that your dog carries actual "worms". It takes quite a while for the heartworm to grow to the point when it actually can cause damage to the dog. On the early stages hearworms are easily treated with nosode and black walnut mixture.
Here is one the the articles about it

http://www.holisticanine.org/gpage.html

"To once own a Great Pyrenees is to love and want one always."
Mary W. Crane

I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it Smiley



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  Re: Bernese Hot Spots
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2007, 12:42:05 PM »

sc.trojans
Rank: Big Paws-a-holic
Posts: 329


I'm going to be the voice of dissent here and say that I would definitely protect against heartworms 

Although some of the chemicals used to treat a dog after it has contracted heartworms are the same as those used in the preventative drugs, they tend to be at a higher doseage.  Some of the other drugs used to treat heartworms are much more harsh on the body.  A dog already infected with heartworms also runs the risk of blood clots, congestive heart failure, and even the dead worms blocking the flow of blood during treatment.  The treatment is not just take a pill and go on your way, like the maintenance drugs.  Heartworm treatment involves keeping your dog quiet 24 hours a day and watching him/her like non-stop.  The treatment is also quite expensive and many dogs require more than one round.
  

Thank you People Whisperer for your comments - I agree.

I do not disagree with East Jenn here - but want to clarify that we are making distinctions here as well.  East Jenn is referring to full blown heartworm - active worms - and the traditional treatment to address it.  It is in fact a harsh treatment, not regarded as healthy and runs the risk because it is so aggressive, of killing the worms so fast that the body can not expel them fast enough - hence the side effects that East Jenn refers to.

I have seen dogs test positive for heartworm - at the stage 1 level - and be treated with safe, slow methods as People Whisperer references whereby the dog does NOT have to be confined or kept still and the risk of over-aggressive expulsion is not present.  I have never seen a problem with this method and know without a doubt it is safer on the body.  This of course presumes that it is caught early and we are treating larvae.

So I still want to emphasize that the safe, more effective treatment for heartworm is to keep your dog protected, test your dog as often as your geographic area necessitates, and treat naturally, slowly for optimal health - the harsh, aggressive drugs aren't necessary then as a result.

And again, heartworm is still a great example of many illnesses - the harsh aggressive drug protocol often employed in western medicine is also often not the most successful protocol. Distemper is another great example.  Vets scare people into vaccinating for this one even when the risk of it is nil - simply because of the horrific results of the traditional treatment for distemper.  Neurological damage often results and dogs often don't make it as a result, but what most people do not understand is the neurological damage is not the distemper virus - it is the aggressive drug interaction that causes it.  I have seen distemper treated completely differently, and the dogs have fully recovered, without any neurological damage.  It will always depend on the strength of the individual dog, but I know the effective treatment exists.

SC Trojans
with Gracie and Skylar


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