High Protein for puppy: good or bad?

[Edwpang]

A lot people are saying high protein is bad for large breed puppies. Why is that? It makes grow them too fast? Any evidence? Is it OK to just feed less and keep the same level of daily protein intake? For example, both Innova EVO and Orijen have about 42% protein, and it's recommended to feed 24% protein dry food to puppies, can I feed ~60% of high protein food? Please share your experience.

[mama23+pyrs2]

Good questions. I'm curious to hear the answers you get. I know some people on here are feeding high protein to their pups, but I've always been told not to and I've always been careful to keep it low, it gets confusing!

[Nicole]

Well, I'm not an expert or anything...but I've always heard and read that high protein for a growing big paw pup is a bad thing. Their mass gets put on faster than their skeletal system can grow to support it, therefore making them more susceptible to ortho problems.

There are LOTS of good threads here about this issue, and HOlly, our resident food guru can certainly elucidate for you.

Good question. I think the commonly accepted answer is low protein, though.

[People Whisperer]

I have been feeding 45-50% protein to my Great Pyrenees since she was 2 months. She was growing nice and slow (much slower then most of the other litter mates which were fed 24%). She has no health issues and very lean.

Recent articles in the Whole Dog Journal and other dog magazines had pointed out that puppies do need high amount of protein and fat BUT should be fed smaller amounts to keep them lean. The same applies to older dogs despite vets recommendation s.

[sc.trojans]

It is not true the high protein is bad for puppies.  Dogs are carnivores and need a lot of animal protein - this is not the culprit.  The issue with orthopedic problems and growing a dog too fast is consuming too many calories.  Too many calories and too much calcium is actually the root of these problems.

Now here is where a critical distinction must be made however!  I fed fresh whole foods and raise my puppies on a very high protein diet - but I control calories and overall consumption and grow them slowly for soundness.

For those of you feeding dog food/kibble - this is not so easily accomplished.  Can you just feed less kibble?  Well, probably not successfully.  You see the problem with dog food is that it contains many ingredients at specific ratios to one another - so you do not have control over individual ingredients. By cutting kibble in half for example, while you are cutting calories, you are also cutting several required nutrients in half, especially calcium - and this is not healthy or appropriate for a growing pup.

So while high protein by definition in real food is not a problem - you cannot effectively manage this with dog food and therefore the most sage advice is to feed a lower protein dog food well suited for a large breed dog.

[DogGuideDan]

Very good post sc trojans - I second everything stated.  Because of the sheer amount of ingredients in kibble, cutting back on the volume will only skew the whole system. 

Lucian is fed an extremely high protein diet (raw), but is not in any way a chubby puppy.  He is lean with good muscle mass already showing through.  Most of the BP raw feeders I know have had very few (if any) ortho issues in their dogs, and that includes seeing a lack of pano.  This is the first puppy I have raised on raw and I am seeing a huge difference in his overall health. 

[mama23+pyrs2]

Well I kind of better understand, except where Lily is concerned because I know she's done well on the high protein kibble, right?

I still don't feel comfortable feeding raw because I don't have the time to learn how to do it properly. If I had the time to really learn it, I'd love to though.

[Edwpang]

Thanks so much for your great answers.
My puppy butter II(Golden doodle, golden + standard poodle) is currently feeding Iams large puppy which a local pet store owner sneered at. He is OK with this food: when we first got him from a rescuer @ 12 weeks old, he was about 9 pound only, and very weak. For the first 2 week, we were feeding them the garbage food purina puppy, his poop runny all the time, we ask ed the rescuer, she suggested Iams, after a week, his poop became much better, and began to gain weight, at 19 weeks(2 weeks ago), he was around 29 pounds. But after I joined BPO forum, thanks to your guys, I began to understand more about pet food, and closely monitered butter's poop, it's very large, a little bit sandy and not so solid if I feed him more. So I am thinking of switch to a better food: Innova large puppy, Innova EVO, or the canadian Orijen. Which one should feed him? As I read your post, I am leaning toward Innova large puppy. What other suggestion? Thanks

[mama23+pyrs2]

Thanks so much for your great answers.
My puppy butter II(Golden doodle, golden + standard poodle) is currently feeding Iams large puppy which a local pet store owner sneered at. He is OK with this food: when we first got him from a rescuer @ 12 weeks old, he was about 9 pound only, and very weak. For the first 2 week, we were feeding them the garbage food purina puppy, his poop runny all the time, we ask ed the rescuer, she suggested Iams, after a week, his poop became much better, and began to gain weight, at 19 weeks(2 weeks ago), he was around 29 pounds. But after I joined BPO forum, thanks to your guys, I began to understand more about pet food, and closely monitered butter's poop, it's very large, a little bit sandy and not so solid if I feed him more. So I am thinking of switch to a better food: Innova large puppy, Innova EVO, or the canadian Orijen. Which one should feed him? As I read your post, I am leaning toward Innova large puppy. What other suggestion? Thanks

Just my opinion, I wouldn't even bother with the large breed puppy food, you can just feed him the adult Innova. I was just posting yesterday about the EVO and was told to wait until they were a bit older to start them on that or another grain free (high protein) kibble. My puppies haven't been on puppy food but an 'all stages' food not specific for any size/age dog, and have done wonderful on it. It's 24% protein. My breeder started them out on adult food when they started to eat solids, she never even bothers with puppy food. I see the the Large Puppy Innova is also 24% and the adult- 25%. I say any of those choices are better than Iams though!

My pups are 5 months old as well and I think they are just kinda getting bored of their food now, so I'm thinking about switching to Innova adult and see how they do, maybe perk up their interest in food again. They do excellent on the Canidae though. They are both rock solid dogs. I just think alternating once in awhile can be a good thing.

I'm sure you'll get more answers!

[People Whisperer]

Well I kind of better understand, except where Lily is concerned because I know she's done well on the high protein kibble, right?

I still don't feel comfortable feeding raw because I don't have the time to learn how to do it properly. If I had the time to really learn it, I'd love to though.

She has done great! I was feeding her straight raw for the first 4 months I got her and then switched to 50/50. She is on Raw Instrict by Natures Variety and any RMB and organs that are on sale 

In my opinion going into numbers such as not going over 24% of protein or feeding 10, 20, 30% of something is just too much. I go with the "balance over time" concept and avoid any grains since they are in fact cause cancer in dogs.
 

[Edwpang]

Just analyzed the Nutritional Facts about the low protein food:Innova Large puppy. It listed the follow main components:
Moisture     10.00  %
Protein    24.00  %
Fat       12.00  %
Linoleic Acid    2.5  %
Fiber            4.00  %
Ash            4.75  %
Other      <5.0%

It adds up to 60%! What is missing? Carbohydrates! So carb is around 40%.

The Innova EVO:
Moisture     7.50  %
Protein    43.16  %
Fat       22.22  %
Linoleic Acid    4.20  %
Carbohydrates    14.46  %
Fiber       1.52  %
Ash       11.14  %
Calcium    3.03  %

It adds up to 107%! There is still other components left! This is better than the Innova low protein food, since it lists the percentage of Carbohydrates, but somehow it mess the total value.

The Orijen Large puppy:
Protein     42.0% (min.)
Carbohydrate    18.0% (max.)
Fat    16.0% (min.)
Moisture    10.0% (max.)
Fiber    2.0% (max.)
Calcium    1.4% (min.)
Phosphorus    1.1% (min.)
Omega-6    2.5% (min.)
Omega-3    1.0% (min.)

Adds up to 94%. This is much better in reporting it's Nutritional value than the first 2.

I checked other low protein dry dog food, up to now there is no one reporting the percentage of Carbohydrate in their product. Since high protein = low cab, low protein = high carb. The question I now may ask is high protein or high carb, which is better?

[Nina]

Well said sc.trojans! Harley my Lab is on a raw diet and she is nice and lean now. I know lots of people that have giant breeds and have fed raw right from the get go.

Nina

[sarnewfie]

For GIANT breed puppies it is not good, it promotes accelerated growth with kibble.
we recommend for our newfoundlands, to be fed 4 turkey necks a day until they get their height in, or an adult kibble that is natural and healthy, if, at the time of teething, wich draws calcium from being put into the bones and put into the teeth instead, that they start to angle out at the pasterns or show funky growth, they should be put on turkey necks immediatly for a while.

[Edwpang]

A interesting discussion about High Protein dog food-Orijin
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/86740.html

[Nina]

WOW, I just read that and vet that helped formulate the food is MY VET! 

Nina