Author Topic: so happy i found this place! hi :) and help  (Read 6839 times)

Offline kuruks pappa

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so happy i found this place! hi :) and help
« on: March 21, 2008, 07:57:03 pm »
hello everyone i have a 12 week old mastiff who was branded "aggresive" by our puppy kendergarden teacher :o
  Sigh..  it all started with the submit ur puppy exercize.
my wife rolled him on his back like she was told and he went grudgingly. but he was nibbling her fingers while he was on his back, the trainer said dont let him bite and instructed her to grab his neck and scold when he did this.  .. so she did and he didnt like it he tried to roll back over and stand when he did the trainer came over and tried to roll him, kuruk would have none of it and nipped at her (the teacher)when she grabbed him by his neck skin.
  my question is, is this aggressive behavior or a normal response.  ty for any response :)

Offline MagicM3

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Re: so happy i found this place! hi :) and help
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 08:36:51 pm »
From what you have said so far I would say NOT...

This excersise as they/you call it IMO is done wrong so much that it is as shame what it has done to many many good dogs..

A nibbling pup is what it sounds like to me...not aggresion..

There are many things that make a dog aggresive....d ominance is another issue altogether..

Just like us there are dominat people and submisive people..

I am of the oppinion that NIFIF is a must for all puppies big paw or little...it makes sense to them...

At 12 weeks it would take a lot of work to create an agressive pup...and no I do not believe that they are born that way..

Welcome to the goup ..you will find many mastif parents here that can give you lots of advise on the breed...but mostly you'll find dog lovers..

Me and my fur kids welcome you..

Tricia and the fur kids

lins_saving_grace

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Re: so happy i found this place! hi :) and help
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2008, 09:03:02 pm »
That is weird for a puppy class to have you be that aggressive in a roll.  I'm all for the roll and that shocks me.  the roll is a dominate behavior people can use to establish rule with your big dog.  I did it with both of my rotts and it worked to establish that i am the big dog.  but i would not grab the neck at the same time. 
I've used the sensitive spot on Grace's neck to get her attention, yes, but not during a roll. 
The roll is a pretty touchy subject here and i'm not making that the issue here...but that instructor is a little harsh. 
one behavior at a time.  roll or neck not both.  and you don't have to grab the neck as much as just poke it. 
Mastiffs are usually pretty mellow too. 
Try a different puppy class.  i don't like the sounds of this one. 
Yes nibbling is not an aggressive behavior.  your pup was probably just getting distracted. Grace does that too when i have her on her back, even in a playful way.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 09:05:17 pm by Lin »

Offline kuruks pappa

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Re: so happy i found this place! hi :) and help
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 02:05:37 am »
thank you for ur responses :) u make us feel better we have decided to look for another trainer as she has said she knows nothing of mastiffs and couldnt have our sweet kuruks temperment more wrong  8)

  ps i cropped picture to make it small enough but did a poor job =\
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 02:17:07 am by kuruks pappa »

Offline Haulin Mastiff

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Re: so happy i found this place! hi :) and help
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2008, 02:11:04 pm »
I'm new here and was wondering what is the roll and why?
Dante-5 mon male OEM
Alex-9 yr female Dalmatian
Dakota-11 yr skin baby
Zack-6 yr skin baby

Offline charliesmom

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Re: so happy i found this place! hi :) and help
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 05:44:48 pm »
Hi
I'm glad you are looking for a new trainer. Mastiffs are a very sweet (and somethimes bull headed)breed, they don't take very well with this type of handling. What may work for one breed may do harm to the next. Your pup sounds like he may be teething, not showing aggression. Depending where you live, it may be hard to find someone who knows anything about mastiffs. Talk to your vet, talk to F.O.R.M. (it's a english mastiff rescue org.) they may be able to recommend someone to you. When we were (and still) training my boy (he just turned 2) we used positive reinforcement. I belong to another mastiff site and here is a snipet by someone who I feel is very knowlegable explaining it

"learning is a science. all dogs, eagles, people, lions, fish and turtles learn the same way, the brain chemicals are identical. i will add that each species also has hard-wired behaviors, described in "the misbehavior of organisms" that can sometimes not be overcome, even by the best and bob and keller and marion were the best (bob still is).

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Breland/misbehavior.htm

(i would suggest that you do not attempt to say "the misbehavior of organisms" after you have had 2 glasses of wine because you will undoubtedly mispronounce the last word and be very embarassed.... eyeroll.)

there are rules of learning:

1. reinforce the behaviors you want
2. ignore the behaviors you don't want

these can be proven over and over and over and over and over, and have been in thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or millions of lab experiments.

behaviorial science is a science, held to the same standards as chemistry. published work must be reproducable, peer reviewed, challenged, re-proven, etc.

part of that science is learning how to learn. when we manipulate dogs into sit (pull up on collar, push down on butt), they are not learning how to learn or learning what sit really means, they are learning an avoidance behavior because they sit to avoid discomfort.

when we free-shape or lure them to sit, they are not only solidly learning how to sit, they are also improving their ability to learn.

dunbar tells a story about a seminar where the audience was dog trainers, with dogs. he asked them to stand up, face away from their dog and cue their dog to sit. these were experienced trainers, people who had multiple obedience titles. one dog sat. that dog was the only dog in the room who had been trained with a clicker, all the others had been trained to sit with the pull/push method. that dog absolutely understood what 'sit' meant. the others only knew it in avoidance context, not when their owners were facing away.

that's one key difference between positive training (which doesn't need a clicker but generally works better with a clicker) and the old pop and jerk training, the behavior is understood.

it's like tying shoelaces. no matter how much people describe it, you never really learn it until you do it yourself. dogs are no different, by figuring out how to do it themselves, they truely learn it. and they are making themselves smarter, they are learning how to learn so that everything they learn is learned faster and the behavior is stronger.

another thought are the studies done on children. asking a child to "climb down" is much more effective than yelling "DON"T CLIMB ON THE CHAIR".
since dogs and children have the same brain chemistry for learning, it's not implausible to consider that the same thing is true for dogs.

that's a brief snippet of the science side of learning. when it can be proven over and over and over that positive reinforcement works better than punishment, i'll take the proven method any time. "

Good luck with your new baby!



Offline jennifer

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Re: so happy i found this place! hi :) and help
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 05:51:31 pm »
You already have lots of smart, understanding responses -- totally normal for this site. Your puppy is painfully cute. I'm Jennifer and I have two Saints. Welcome! 
:) Jennifer
Mom to Saint Nakita and Charlie the cat

RIP sweet Bear (9/02-8/08)

marypyrs

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Re: so happy i found this place! hi :) and help
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 05:57:37 pm »
WOW! You have my attention. :)

lorim2

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Re: so happy i found this place! hi :) and help
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 06:52:48 pm »
OMG..What an adorable face.  Everything already said is absolutely right.  You cant bully a mastiff..or at least you could Marley.  It would have hurt his feelings so bad I am  not sure he would have recovered.  I also agree with the teething idea.  He looks like a sweetheart and would love to see more pics!  By the way, welcome!

Offline Ronen

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Re: so happy i found this place! hi :) and help
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2008, 02:20:46 pm »
Hi there. I am a new mastiff owner. My baby is 8 months. Mine was very mouthy at that age and I called the breeder. SHe told me to just wait a month or 6 weeks, he is just a puppy. SHe was right! He is no longer mouthy and the perfect gentleman. After the first month or so he did a 360. Be patient he will probably out grow this.
I also took mine to obedience but they used a very gentle technique in training. I went to Petsmart.
Good luck!