Author Topic: Why oh Why  (Read 12835 times)

Offline no.newf.ashley

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Why oh Why
« on: February 05, 2009, 12:58:07 pm »
I think im going to pull out my hair, i found another breeder started asking the questions you know all the formalities before getting to close, and excited about puppies, and ask to see the pedigrees of the dogs shes planning on breeding and THEY SHARE THE SAME FATHER does anyone else see a HUGE problem with this?!  ayayaya!
..onto the next


Offline Vapidfire

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Re: Why oh Why
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2009, 02:31:10 pm »
Hi,

This is actually very common and called "line" breeding.
Many breeders do it to keep certain traits in their lines and for some other reasons. Depending on how strong the lines are I wouldn't discount the possibility of getting a puppy from that litter though many people consider it "icky" really the only one that I know that is strongly frowned upon is full brother to full sister but that may only be in newfies.
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lins_saving_grace

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Re: Why oh Why
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2009, 02:43:53 pm »
i think we humanize this kinda thing...but i still wonder how natural and healthy it is too.  Grace's sister's sire is closely related to her...maybe an uncle or something.

Offline no.newf.ashley

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Re: Why oh Why
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 03:38:48 pm »
Oh la la, this is why i'm not a breeder :D
I think its exactly what i'm doing like Lin said, humanizing the situation.  Are there any specific questions i should be asking the breeder regarding this topic then?
Thanks for the input guys!

Offline People Whisperer

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Re: Why oh Why
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 04:18:59 am »
Here is a great article if you really want to learn about genetics  :)

http://www.mbfs.com/compuped/bell.asp
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Offline patrick

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Re: Why oh Why
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 08:48:44 am »
Line breeding done carefully is a valuable tool for breeders.  However outcrosses have equal dangers as they can bring stuff in your lines that is totally unexpected. Some outcrosses are a total disaster- all dogs have recessive genes in their background and doing an outcross is no guarantee of non affected offspring. The article Oleysa recommended discusses the pros and cons of both and is an excellant resource. The best bet is to check out genetic problems and rescues in the area and make a determination from there. 

Offline sc.trojans

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Re: Why oh Why
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 05:23:48 pm »
I and THEY SHARE THE SAME FATHER does anyone else see a HUGE problem with this?! 



Yes, I do!  By tradition, breeders have considered distantly related crosses to be Linebred while close-up crosses were Inbred.  Line breeding is a long standing common practice - and in reality, all purebred dogs were inbred originally, working outward to linebred.  Many geneticists and scientists studying canine disease today view linebreeding as a tactic that has reached its limit and served its purpose.  The health of our purebred dogs today is lower than ever and the bottleneck that linebreeding can create may not be serving the future of our breeds at this point - only time will tell.

Just to clarify linebreeding and inbreeding - lnbreeding is typically regarded as the breeding of two closely related dogs. Father to Daughter, Mother to Son, Half Brother to Half Sister, and Full Brother to Full Sister are all inbred breedings. Linebreeding is a classification that can be appropriately applied to more distant relations such as uncle and niece and 2nd cousins etc.  I do not consider the situation you are looking at to even qualify as "linebreeding".  It is too close for my comfort and I do not see any health benefits arising from such breedings - what I do see is consistent type, if that matters to you.
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Offline patrick

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Re: Why oh Why
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2009, 01:40:40 am »
Actually 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister is considered line breeding IF there is an outcross in there.  If both parents also share identical lines then it would be inbreeding.  It all depends on the genetics of the other '1/2'.  The article referenced by Oleysa does discuss line breeding rather thoroughly and it is still widely used and still considered a valuable tool in preserving the good traits in the breeding program.  There is a thin line though between inbreeding and line breeding.  Outcrosses can be a crap shoot- you have no idea what you will be bringing in.  Most breeders who do an outcross will only do so if the outcross is linebred as well. Selective breeding is how you eliminate genetic problems as well- hence the reason for line breeding. There is an excellant software available in which you can calculate the co-efficient variance in your breeding program which will tell you just how inbred your dogs are. 

Offline sc.trojans

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Re: Why oh Why
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 06:35:17 pm »
There is an excellant software available in which you can calculate the co-efficient variance in your breeding program which will tell you just how inbred your dogs are. 

I can't speak for other breeds, but in my breed the best breeders always provide a pedigree with the inbreeding coefficient. For novice buyers, they educate on the coefficient and what it means (unfortunately, most novice buyers don't first learn on their own what is considered acceptable vs. not which is needed in order to evaluate).

Some breeds are in better shape than others, but in mine, I wouldn't touch a half brother/sister scenario - I have not seen anything but shorter lifespan come from it in my breed and can't find a  great case example to point to that will justify it.  There is certainly less control with outcrosses as has been noted, but in breeds as dire as mine, it is deemed necessary to start building a wider immune response, which has become far too narrow today.  As just one example, my breeder has phenomenal longevity in her line, until she linebred trying to capitalize on that great longevity - the production from that linebreeding just passed away at 8.5 years, while their mom is still alive at 12 and maintaining that longevity.  I am just not seeing good results but watching closely.

As an aside, my current girl has linebreeding on each side of her pedigree - 5th generation in on the sire side, and 3rd generation in on the dam side - but the sire and dam don't have a single dog in common in over 12 generations!  Now THAT'S an outcross :)  Time will tell whether it helps or hurts my girl so I will keep you posted......
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Offline FXgirl

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Re: Why oh Why
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2009, 08:24:08 am »
I know for leonbergers there is a database created by hard working leo lovers complete with pedigrees, breedings, siblings and half-siblings lists, hip scores and the inbreeding coefficient percentage.  It has been an invaluable source of info. As long as I have a pedigree name of a dog it's amazing how much I can find out about a breeding dog just online with all the sources out there.  Other purebred enthusiasts should do the same IF they aren't already.

To the original poster, I would say if you're not comfortable with that close of a breeding move on.  I was on a breeder search for a newf a while back and found it tough.  I'm picky.