Author Topic: Why is the AM such a problem?  (Read 16389 times)

Offline Softhug

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2006, 04:22:07 pm »
I think a dog is a really personal decision.  You should really research and decide what things you DON'T want in a dog as well as the traits you DO want.  You can read 1000 posts with pro's and con's from either side (or any breed for that matter) and it just won't make a difference once you have your mind and heart set on a dog.  :)   
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Offline Boyle

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2006, 04:22:56 pm »
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I think most AM breeders point out the whole drool aspect not as drool free but with less drool. This is from one breeders site:

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Fredericka Wagner of Flying W. Farm created the foundation stock of the American Mastiff, infusing Anatolian Mastiffs into the English lines.There is no need to carry a drool rag everywhere you go with an American Mastiff. They do drool, when excited and around food, but really no more than most any other breed of dog. That is a major plus in the live with quotient with these beautiful giants.


I have to tell you, Nola is an 11 month full-blooded OEM and the only time I have to wipe him down with a drool rag is after drinking or when he smells something delicious such as late night gyros.  Even with your AM, you will always have to carry a drool rag.  Sometimes the dog smells McDonald's, BK, etc. while riding in the car which will cause puddles of slobber to form.   It's really attractive to drive around with slingers on all the windows.

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2006, 04:34:09 pm »
I don't think that the AM is the problem. The problem is that these threads often degenerate into a "my dog is better than your dog"
pi@#%^g contest.
I have a mixed breed dog, and I have purebred dogs. I don't show, simply because I do not have the time nor the passion to do it well.
I picked my mix breed off of petfinders, because the breeds in combination intrigued me, and still do. But I do not consider him a breed, other than a mix. I would not have paid the price that I paid for my purebreds for him, although I love him dearly. If others choose to do so, whether it be designer dogs or fraudulent AKC champion offspring(the beagle that looks like a rat terrier but the owner has AKC Beagle registration papers from that lovely petstore down the street, and only for $1,000.00!), more power to them.
JMHO
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Offline NoDogNow

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2006, 05:05:03 pm »
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But I don't approve of Monopolizing.

See, and I do approve of it, at least with breeds that are new and essentially still proving out their standards.   Established breeds are a different kettle of fish.

It's been my impression as I've been researching that the 'new' breeds that have maintained their genetic integrity and stated standards the best have been those where one or two people have been fully committed to not only developing, but accurately DOCUMENTING the development, of the breed.  I've also read some disturbing things with some new/developing breeds whose founders either died, gave up, or just lost control of their lines for various reasons.   

AM's are still a pretty new breed--aren't they less than 20 generations out from the founding dogs?  So that means there's still a lot to be learned about how the genetics are going to fall out in the long term.  Which also means there's still a lot of documenting to do.

Clearly at some point some entity is going to have to take over--a breed founder isn't going to be around as long as the breed they developed, if they've developed it correctly.  But I think that this early in the process, it's not a bad thing for the breed founder or a designated small group of breeders, to have a 'monopoly' on the lines.   

If I eventually settle on a 'new' breed, one of my personal top criterion for choosing a breeder is how close a relationship to the 'founder' does the breeder have, and how well documented are litters (including what proportion of the litters are actually documented!), what are the statistics and the documentation showing issues like bad hips, bad hearts, etc.  I would expect to see--even get copies of--ongoing and extensive documentation, so that 30 or 50 generations out, there would be statistical data regarding hips, eyes, color, drool factor, health issues, temperment or temperment problems, and whatever other traits the originator planned to breed for or out.  And I don't know how someone could warrant the accuracy of such data unless they had a "monopoly" that gave them personal oversight. 

This is all Just My Opinion again: but  based on the research I've been doing, is that this approach to control and documentation is what sets a "Breed Developer" apart from a BYB Doodle nut. 

« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 05:07:52 pm by NoDogNow »
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Offline greek4

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2006, 05:05:22 pm »
Maia-OEM-drools when she drinks, runs around a lot, chews a bone, or smells food.
Rocco-Newf/Rott mix when he drinks, runs around a lot, chews a bone, or smells food.
Brandy(my dad's dog)cocker/Dacshund mix-drools when she drinks or smells food.
Reese-lab-drools when she drinks, runs around a lot, chews a bone, or smells food.

All dogs drool, I have even seen cats drool.

Thanks,

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Offline Magnus

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2006, 05:21:50 pm »
The American Masiff Breed Council was formed in 2002 to help protect and manage the breeding and proliferation of the Flying W Farm American Mastiff. The concern was that unscrupulous people would trade on the excellent reputation of the breed that Fredricka Wagner had developed for their own purposes or greed. There are actually 10 breeders that are AMBC approved. Frederika used to breed OEM and then began to breed AMs.
As far as the whole drool thing, as most of us who own or have owned rotties, there is a degree of drool with them as well.  That wasnt the selling point with me. I just like the dogs I met and that was it.
I have to say this has been nice, no yelling or anger. Just people presenting their opinions and respecting others.
What a nice site.
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Offline Anky

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2006, 05:40:56 pm »
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But I don't approve of Monopolizing.

See, and I do approve of it, at least with breeds that are new and essentially still proving out their standards.   Established breeds are a different kettle of fish.

It's been my impression as I've been researching that the 'new' breeds that have maintained their genetic integrity and stated standards the best have been those where one or two people have been fully committed to not only developing, but accurately DOCUMENTING the development, of the breed.  I've also read some disturbing things with some new/developing breeds whose founders either died, gave up, or just lost control of their lines for various reasons.   

AM's are still a pretty new breed--aren't they less than 20 generations out from the founding dogs?  So that means there's still a lot to be learned about how the genetics are going to fall out in the long term.  Which also means there's still a lot of documenting to do.

Clearly at some point some entity is going to have to take over--a breed founder isn't going to be around as long as the breed they developed, if they've developed it correctly.  But I think that this early in the process, it's not a bad thing for the breed founder or a designated small group of breeders, to have a 'monopoly' on the lines.   

If I eventually settle on a 'new' breed, one of my personal top criterion for choosing a breeder is how close a relationship to the 'founder' does the breeder have, and how well documented are litters (including what proportion of the litters are actually documented!), what are the statistics and the documentation showing issues like bad hips, bad hearts, etc.  I would expect to see--even get copies of--ongoing and extensive documentation, so that 30 or 50 generations out, there would be statistical data regarding hips, eyes, color, drool factor, health issues, temperment or temperment problems, and whatever other traits the originator planned to breed for or out.  And I don't know how someone could warrant the accuracy of such data unless they had a "monopoly" that gave them personal oversight. 

This is all Just My Opinion again: but  based on the research I've been doing, is that this approach to control and documentation is what sets a "Breed Developer" apart from a BYB Doodle nut. 



I agree to a point.  I think when a new breed is being established that every single litter should produced with immense forethought.  That maybe a litter or two a year?  When someone is churning out a ton of puppies they can't possibly be as discerning with their breedings.  Just my opinion.
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Offline NoDogNow

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2006, 07:47:50 pm »
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That maybe a litter or two a year?

I think that all depends on how many dogs you're working with.  I would say one litter per year per female is pretty responsible breeding.   But it's possible, with enough dogs in your program, to have your program planned as much as 2 years in advance.  If you have a female, for example, you may want to match her to 3 different males to introduce her genes to a broad spectrum of your program--this spring, next spring, spring after that.    If a the first litter shows up some great dogs by age 2, you may want to repeat that breeding, which puts you out a third year. 

I've read about kennels in some of the huntin fancies with 20 plus females in a breeding program. Just because a dog's in a breeding program doesn't mean it lives with the breeder.  I've read that it's not uncommon for a breeder to agree to co-owning dogs that they've picked as a potential for their program, under the condition that if/when the dog's bred it's at their sole discretion, to a mate the breeder alone determines and females may come back to the breeder for the duration of the pregnancy and stay until her pups are ready to go home.   Or perhaps comes to them for the breeding, but is allowed to gestate, deliver and raise at home, with the breeder visiting regularly. Usually, pups are the breeder's to determine homes for--I haven't really read about joint decisions, but I suppose they're out there.   Pups apparently stay with mom till they're weaned, go to the breeder for a couple of weeks for intensive socialization and evaluation (some hunting breeds even a little initial bird training), and then go to their permanent homes. 

I'm just saying these are some of the things I've read that are done in some cases by some breeders.   I'm not advocating it as the way it should be done; but I don't see that it's a bad way to do it, especially if you're working with a new breed like the AM and are trying to a--control your lines; b--manage your data and c--provide people with well bred, healthy puppies.

I totally understand that it's a HUGE heads up when someone always has puppies on the ground, and I would be doing a lot of background checking if I discovered a breeder I was interested in did always have pups.  I'd want to talk to an awful lot of people as to what was going on--I would never take someone's word on it.  I'd want to talk to every person who had a dog in the person's breeding program, and see evidence that this is what was actually  happening--that's why I won't ever buy a dog without visiting the breeder regularly over the course of a number of months.  However, this kind of arrangement does go on, and it means that there ARE a very, very few breeders who have pups almost all the time who aren't actually puppy milling BYBs. 

99.9 percent of them are PM/BYB's, though.  Which is why you can't trust anyone.

All this is why I'm finding it's such a long process to research a breed, research the fancy, research a breeder...

Lately, I'm thinking I'll never know enough to buy a puppy.  I'm thinking that I'll just stick with the biggest dog at the animal shelter that 'calls' to me.  ;)

That's if I ever find a place where I can have a dog at all.  I went and looked at a place this weekend, and it was just too sketchy for words.  If I'd moved there, I'd have had to get a trained cockroach hunter!

Sheryl, Dogless and sad

Offline Kermit

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2006, 08:10:05 pm »
I am enjoying this discussion. You guys are very knowledgable and thoughtful on this subject!!! :)

Offline Proliant

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2006, 02:36:27 pm »
I think that we have had this discussion enough times that it is getting old. In my humble opinion .... I dont think that anyone would have gotten an AM without having loved OEM's first (and I still do!). They are a little different ... but they are also very similar.

I believe that the point should be RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH! Know as much about the dog you are interested in as possible and avoid at all cost impulse decisions. Only with careful RESEARCH and a realistic appraisal of your wants and needs (not to mention always meeting several of the breed and perferably the parents of your puppy) should you decide on a particular dog.

In short .... know what you are getting into and you will not be suprised (unpleasantly) or disappointed later.

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Offline kkmuller

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2006, 10:25:30 pm »
I know some of you think this subject has been beaten to death, but it's a real blessing for us new members.  I have been researching myself to death.  Reading this thread has been very enlighting.  I am on a waiting list for an AM though I did research on both AM and OEM.  They are both beautiful.  I'd kiss them both on the mouth drool and all.  I do see the AM as a mutt. But so am I, and I turned out okay.
Thank you all for your input.  It really does help.

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2006, 10:30:19 pm »
[quote author=kkmuller link=topic=7397.msg107722#msg107722 date=1142569530
  I'd kiss them both on the mouth drool and all.  I do see the AM as a mutt. But so am I, and I turned out okay
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That is fantastic! ;D I truely love your perspective on the subject!...Bless you! :)

Offline Proliant

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2006, 06:41:26 pm »
I don't know ..... I'm not fond of poodles ..... but to each their own.  ;)

Matthew




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It was Newfie & Great Pyr that were crossed with the smooth coated St.'s..Ty! :P ;D lol!
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Please forgive me oh mighty Great Pyrenees, how could I not give you the credit you so rightfully deserve? My apologies forever... I shall now on double-check and cross-reference all my sources for canine history!!
 ;)

I thought that combo was what made up the Leonberger and only the Newfie was used to re-strengthen the Saints genepool?  Too much to remember.  Whatever, I love all dogs, even ugly mutts and foofy poodles.  I agree with people's concern and wariness about genetic meddling and puppy milling, although I don't know anything about this AM issue, so I won't pretend to understand.

Offline Kelly89084

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2006, 07:11:33 pm »
I don't know ..... I'm not fond of poodles ..... but to each their own.  ;)

Matthew

 
:o  You sound just like my hubby.  he informed me that if I got a poodle he wouldn't exercise it because he didn't want to be seen walking a "girly" dog.   ::)
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Offline Sami142

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2006, 07:25:11 pm »
My husband said the same thing until we got Rookie our male Standard Poodle.  He's 55 lbs at 4 months and there's nothing "foofy" about him!  ;)
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