My first ever pup - a Saint! - a few questions....

[PennyK]

Hi All!  I am so excited!  We went and picked up a Saint puppy last night.      He is 6 wks old and short haired mantle coat.  His litter was orphaned at birth but was nursed by another dog for a few wks.  He is purebred (father and aunt were on site) but not registered. 

I picked him because he has the cutest little bump on his nose (I mean...how do you chose between puppies that mostly look all the same??)  So far he seems pretty independent but not afraid of anything and his favorite is to climb into our laps to sleep.  I am SOOOOO in LOVE!!!

This is my first pup (hubby had one before I met him but that was a long time ago!) and so I have a few questions.

We noticed that he seems very bowlegged in the front.  Is this normal in Saint pups?  (I am so afraid of everything I hear about hip dysplasia - can anyone direct me to a good, easy to understand, article?)

I heard that we should NOT be feeding him puppy food, but should be feeding regular dog food to slow down his growth rate.  We are currently feeding IAMS puppy food.  Can anyone tell me if this is true?

Since he is only 6 weeks, can we begin to give him "Jerky" and "milk bones" as rewards for good behaviour?  Or is he too young?


I found BPO about a week ago and have since been hooked on reading all your posts!!     This sounds like a great community and a great resource for all things dog!  I sure hope you will welcome me and my, as yet un-named, pup!!!

[chaos270]

    Generally you want a large breed puppy food (Eukanuba is what we feed Kali) or a premuim adult food (it's better for the giants to just go with adult foods). 
    The bow legs could be either poor conformation.. .Kali has the same issue or a more serious problem with the growth plates.  When you take him for a vet checkup have the vet look at them and give you a better idea of which it is and maybe take xrays to be sure. 
    Treats are ok as long as he doesn't get too fat  you should be able to feel the ribs and backbone at all times.  Be careful with the milkbones because they're high in fat...just give him small pieces.  To protect his hips and elbows don't let him jump alot...avoid frisbee, jumping in and out of cars etc.   Also if you have slippery floors it helps to invest in some nonskid rugs so as he gets bigger he can have better traction.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask.....We like pictures too especially of puppies

[Senghe]

With you taking him at 6 weeks, please be extra vigilant with early socialization or you could end up with behavioural problems.

As far as his legs, most large breed puppies have huge feet and 'knobbly' wrists that can make their legs looked slightly bowed, but it's an optical illusion as the outside of the leg will look straight, but the inner side will looked bowed frm the chest to the wrist. If his paws are knuckled in and he can't stand with them straight and flat to the floor or his long bones bend in any way, he could have a problem. Here's the St Bernard Club Of America's website and it has photos and good info on feeding etc... www.saintbernardclub.org/

For training treats, you can't beat tiny pieces of cooked chicken. I'm not sure about the food as I've only had one giant breed pup and Tibetan Mastiffs don't get quite as big as Saints. Flynn had puppy food up to being 4 months old, but he just had diahorrea all the time with it - I put him on a good quality adult food at 21% protein and it cleared up immediately. He's well grown for his age so I don't think it's done him any harm.

Good luck with your baby and I can't wait to see photos and hear what you decide to name him!

[PennyK]

Thank you both so much for your insight!

Senghe...what do you mean with the socialization?  Why is it different at 6 wks as opposed to, say 8 or 10 weeks? 

I want to try to do everything right to make him a long-lived, healthy dog with good behaviour that we can take places and really enjoy.  I really value your knowledge! 
You know....I really thought I was ready.  I did my research and read about Saints for months before we went looking, but now that we actually got one home.....I feel like a brand new Mom with my firstborn child!!!  I'm scared I won't do a good job!

[shangrila]

Hello Penny, welcome to BPO and welcome to the wonderful world of Saints! They are the most loving, beautiful, and wonderful dogs ever!

I am going to try and address all of the questions you have posted.

First of all, I want to reassure you that you will be a wonderful puppy-mommy! You say that you are scared that you won't do a good job, but I know that you will do a great job. I know this because you are here asking questions, doing research, and finding out what is best for your dog. You are learning, and as they say, knowing is half the battle

As far as the bowlegged legs go, I am not sure that bowlegging is normal in the front legs, though it is hard to say without seeing it. In the back legs, saints are not bowlegged per-say, but they do have moderatly angulated hocks, which basically means that their feet point slightly outward. If you want I will try and find a picture of zoey that shows what this looks like for youto compare against. Also, HD is deffinately something you should be contientious about. When I got Zoey I knew that HD was something to watch out for, but I did not realize how bad it could get and how soon. Zoey's HD affects her in everything she does and it pains and stresses me to watch her hurting. I have just finished writing up some points about HD for you - I will post them in a seperate post.

It is correct that you should be feeding adult food. This is a preventative measure that you should take to help alleviate HD issues down the road. Adult food will help your pup grow slower, and that is something you aim for with saints. You also want to make sure to use a good high-quality food. If you need help figuring out what foods are good, let me know and I can point you to some articles and recommended food lists...He might have trouble eating it because it is often harder than puppy food; you can solve that by soaking it in warm water for 5-10 minutes or by pouring room temperature water on it and microwaving it for a minute. Also, remember that you need to switch slowly. It is recommended that you replace only a small portion at a time, building up the amount of new food while reducing the amount of old food, over a period of 7-10 days.

It is okay to give treats for good behavior - in fact I encourage it! Food is the best motivator for behavior and potty training! One thing you will probably find is that he will have trouble eating hard cookies - they make bad training treats because it takes forever to eat withpuppy teeth! I reccommend soft treats, like bil-jack liver treats. If you use jerky for treats, use tiny squares of it so they can eat it easily. And make sure you have bully sticks and toys and such for him to chew on - proper chew toys means less chance of him eating up your belongings.

You asked about socialization. With puppies, they learn a lot about how to interact with other dogs and people from their mama and littermates. Generally the litter is not allowed to be seperated until 8-10 weeks, which is how they learn things like bite inhibition.  Since your pup was seperated from him mom as a baby and his litter so early, you need to be exra contientious about socializing him. For now, you need to let him meet and have positive experiences with all kinds of people, and with trusted healthy dogs. Once he is fully immunized he can interact with all kinds of animals, but until them you want to only expose him to dogs you know well who you can trust are healthy.

One other thing that I want to make sure you know about is the importance of frequent grooming right now while he is young. You need to make a point to handle him every day. Try to brush him and touch his paws, ears, etc, every single day. It is also important that you make ear cleaning, nail cutting (be very careful not to cut the quick), and bathing regular occurances right now. You want him to grow up used to being groomed and thinking that grooming is a good thing. That way, when he weighs 100+ pounds and have plenty of muscle to fight with, grooming will not be a struggle.

Let us know any questions you have. BPO is happy to help! All we want in return is puppy pictures so we can all drool over how cute he is

Good luck!

[shangrila]

Hip Dysplacia

The leading organization dealing with HD is the OFA (orthopedic foundation for animals). According to them, St. Bernards have the 6th highest incidence of HD.  They deal primarily with testing hips, but you can also read a short but informative sumary of HD from them here: http://www.offa.org/hipgeninfo.html and a brief overview of treatment options here: http://www.offa.org/hiptreat.html

Two longer but easier to read article can be found here: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1569&articleid=444  and here: http://www.canismajor.com/dog/dys01.html  You can also visit this site: http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0090.htm for a variety of other HD resources.

I will give you a quick overview of what I, as an owner of a saint with HD, believe are the most important points you need to know right now:

Prevention
HD is deffinately related to genetics, but how much it affects a dog has a lot to do with how the pup is raised. If you begin a prevention when the pup is a baby, you will help minimize the impact of the HD in the long run. Some simple things that you can do to prevent HD are:

• Let the pup grow slowly. The dog will ultimately reach the same full-grown size, but the longer it takes them to get to that size, the better. By letting a pup grow slowly, you are letting their hips have more time to grow into themselves. This is where the adult food comes into play. Puppy food is high in protein and is made to make a pup grow quickly; since this is what you want to avoid, you should put your dog on a regular adult or large breed adult food from the start. If the pup is having trouble eating it because it is hard, soak it in warm water to make it puppy-teeth friendly
• Maintain a light weight through controlled portions of high quality food. You want to keep your saint on the slim side to reduce the impact on their hips. You do not want a ridiculously skinny dog because that would not be healthy, but you do want them on the slim side, because saints tend to be overweight, but the thinner the dog is, the greater the benefit to the hips. The way my vet explained it to me is that because of Newton's Second Law of Motion (Force=Mass X Acceleration), loosing 10% of body mass will reduce the impact on the hips by 30%.
• Use moderate to low-impact excersize. This will not only help maintain weight, but will also help build muscles. Strong leg muscles will also help reduce the impact on the hips. Saints do better with several short walks than with one long walk. They also do better when going at a slow pace. When you want them to run around with their dog friends, make sure it is on a soft suface (grass) rather than a hard one (pavement). If you live near a lake, swimming is also a wonderful low-impact excersize.
• Prevent jumping. Train your dog not to jump on people or furniture. For situations where getting up is neccessary (ie, to get into a car), you can buy a ramp. You should also learn how to safetly (for you and them) lift your dog for situations where they can't jump and a ramp is not available.
• Provide comfortable cushioned bedding. This includes inside their crate as well as having cushy beds to lie on in the living room, bedroom, or wherever else they hang out.
  
• Supplement with a glucosamine/chondrointin/msm supplement. This has been proven to help reduce the pain and inflamation associated with the arthritis that HD causes. The one caution is that you need to make sure you are using a reliable brand because these supplements are not regulated by the FDA, so you need to make sure that your brand of choice is trustworthy.
• If you have wood, tile, or laminate floors, get large area rugs to cover them where possible, and use a rubber carpet liner underneath to hold it in place. HD dogs tend to slip and slide on smooth floors, which will only complicate their injuries.
• Keep the fur under their paws trimmed. This will help prevent slipping and sliding.

Signs to look for
These are some of the signs to watch out for. If you see them, you should speak with your doctor about them. If HD presents itself severly before your pup is 10 months old, you might consider getting a TPO surgery. Otherwise, it is suggested that you wait until a dog is two years old before X-raying hips because they will not have reached full growth until then. Also, it is important to know that the X-ray does not neccessarily reflect the amount of pain the dog feels; some dogs have terrible Xrays and few symptoms, while others might have decent xrays but debilitating pain.

The symptoms of HD tend to be worst in the morning when the pet first gets up and then improve throughout the day. Symptoms tend to be worse after heavy exercise, usually the next day. Also, some days are better than others, with cold and wet days often being worse. Symptoms include:

• limping
  
• "bunny hopping", which means that when running the dog will use both hind legs tegether like a bunny would.
  
• short-strided steps in the rear legs
  
• slow to get rear-end up off the floor
  
• slow to sit or lie down
  
• difficulty climbing stairs or jumping
  
• morning stiffness
  
• reluctance to exercise or play.

[PennyK]

Thank you all so much!!!! 

Another couple of questions....(you might as well get used to it!  LOL!)

I know he's only 6 wks but he piddles every 10 mins.  Just when I think we can have some play time on the carpet...anoth er piddle.  (but he also piddles everytime we take him outside!) As I said, I'm new to pups, so...I assume this is normal...pleas e tell me if its not!

Hubby is worried about how much time we (eaning mostly me, but the kids too  ) spend on the floor with puppy.  Will "spoiling" him have any effects?

Even though puppy has the piddle problem, can we start taking him places?  For car rides and to visit people?  I had thought to start at 8 wks (cause thats what I read about) but can I start now?

I think we are going to mix the foods.  Puppy chow and adult food for now.  Does this sound like an OK idea?  It will allow all the nutrients for puppyhood but would also reduce the protien.  Let me know what you think.

Also.....the decision is in!!!   

His name is...........T eddy!!!   Hubby and the kids are pretty stcuk on it and....well... .he's a typical Saint puppy......he looks just like a teddy bear!!!

[Yaz]

Thank you all so much!!!! 

Another couple of questions....(you might as well get used to it!  LOL!)

- Don't worry about too many questions, ask away!

I know he's only 6 wks but he piddles every 10 mins.  Just when I think we can have some play time on the carpet...anoth er piddle.  (but he also piddles everytime we take him outside!) As I said, I'm new to pups, so...I assume this is normal...pleas e tell me if its not!

- Being six weeks old his bladder control will be very very low. You will find it will slowly get better as the weeks go by. Between 16 weeks and five months is usually the age for housebreaking to occur. Up until then you will find they are not even aware that they have to go pee, especially when they are playing, so hang in there as it will get better. The best thing to do is take him out every 10 minutes when you do give him play time and he will soon be trotting right up to the door to go outside when he has to go.


Hubby is worried about how much time we (eaning mostly me, but the kids too  ) spend on the floor with puppy.  Will "spoiling" him have any effects?

-In my years of raising puppies, the best advice I can give is do not let a puppy get away with behavior that you would not want to do with an adult. This applies to things like mouthing or growling or jumping up on people. Having said that, a six week old puppy needs a tonne of cuddling and affection since it left it's litter a couple of weeks too early. So I would say as long as you let Teddy get PLENTY of sleep (he needs 18 hours daily), then cuddle and play away!

At eight weeks you can start to add training to your play time. My puppies can sit, shake a paw and come to their names by nine weeks of age. Using treats and extremely short training periods that are fun and non-stressful (one - two minutes a few times a day), is the best way to train a young puppy. The other cavet I would add is that a Saint gets very big very quickly, so be sure to start training in tiny amounts by eight weeks.


Even though puppy has the piddle problem, can we start taking him places?  For car rides and to visit people?  I had thought to start at 8 wks (cause thats what I read about) but can I start now?

- By all means! And I am glad you are aware of the importance of socializing. That is one of my biggest musts, for new puppy owners. The only thing you will find is that he will become very tired very quickly - like a baby , a young puppy needs a tonne of sleep. I would keep a crate in the car during this cold weather so that you can visit people and then pop him in the crate to sleep during your visit when you notice he is becomming tired.

Scientific studies have outlined the developmental stages in a young dog. Dr Ian Dunbar, a renowned veterinarian and author of several dog behavior books, states that a puppy should meet 100 different people by the time they are 12 weeks old. As impossible as this may seem, it becomes feasible if you bring Teddy out in the world with you as much as possible. Act as you normally would when saying hello to strangers as you walk down the street, and he will learn what normal behavior is, thus installing confidence while being introduced to his new world. Ensure Teddy meets vaccinated dogs, not to interact with, simply to sniff and see. This again, helps to normalize new experiences for the pup.

Here is a list of things you should introduce Teddy to during the critical socialization period of seven to 12 weeks:

- opening and closing an umbrella.


- loud traffic


- traffic at night (cars have bright head lights on)


- garbage cans


- baby strollers


- joggers, roller bladers


- vacuum cleaner


- elevator


- sweeping and mopping


- garden hose


- raking leaves


- hooded parka (have someone wear one if it is summer)


- cats


- children running, jumping, shouting


- people in wheelchairs


- people wearing backpacks


- small dogs, big dogs


Add to this list anything that you think Teddy might need to experience in order to normalize it's environment. If you make a point to have your puppy meet different people as well as experience different stimuli, you are well on your way to having a confident socialized dog.

I think we are going to mix the foods.  Puppy chow and adult food for now.  Does this sound like an OK idea?  It will allow all the nutrients for puppyhood but would also reduce the protien.  Let me know what you think.

- I know a few breeders with beautiful champion Saints that feed Pro Plan puppy food to their dogs for the first five months and then switch to Pro Plan Adult. I myself am very happy with Kirkland Lamb and Rice (the Kirkland is Costco's signature brand). It is a premium dog food and costs $23 for a 40 pound bag, which is a great price for feeding a growing Saint.


Also.....the decision is in!!!   

His name is...........T eddy!!!   Hubby and the kids are pretty stcuk on it and....well... .he's a typical Saint puppy......he looks just like a teddy bear!!!

- Great name! Please post some pictures as soon as you can!

[Senghe]

As well as agreeing with all the great advice everybody has given you so far, here's a couple of tips I've picked up over the years of being aunty to my friend's litters of shar-pei puppies. You might find these useful for Teddy.

Bite inhibition - I've found that the thing that works best with young puppies is  to not pull away which will be your reflex action. If a puppy bites you when playing, just scream or squeal. They will usually let go and look at you.

Definitely let the pup get lots of sleep and never wake him up, but be ready to take him straight out when the does as he'll invariably need a pee or a poop.

Don't use newspaper as all you'll end up doing is having to housetrain your puppy twice.

[jules]

First of all welcome to bigpaws. This site is the best out there.Spotakis s was my first puppy too.We feed him Eukanuba for large breed puppy until 2 years.Right now hes only about1 and a half.Everyonr has there own opinion.So youll just have to take it all in and come up with what you think is best.You are right about how hard it is to pick out a pup they all look alike.I picked ours out because of a big spot on his cheek.X marks the spot.In the begining I took Spotakiss out every half an hour.Anyway if you have any ?s this is the place.Enjoy!Warning though this site is addictive!

[Smaug]

Welcome to BPO.  I have a 4 and a half month old Saint named Chase.  The folks on here are the best, and the knowledge they share is indisputable and always helpful.  I would like to offer some words of encouragement on training.  I thought Saints would be easy to train due to their obvious common sense and loyalty.  I think they are easy if you are experienced.  I had a full grown adopted Saint female when I was a teenager and she was the best dog I ever had.  I taught her how to do all kind of stuff just because she enjoyed pleasing me.
Well, Chase is my first pup and I know he is very smart, but very stubborn, not even sure if that is the right word.  For instance, If he is outside and having fun and I need him to come inside for something I get his attention by saying his name, I then tell him to "come" and do the hand motion and if he's in the mood he will bolt to the door.  Other times he just looks at me, and sometimes sits down.  He gets this look on his face that says I know exactly what you want me to do, but I am not in the mood right now, check back with me later.  This in my opinion is unacceptable and I go get his leash, show it to him from the door and he comes in.  I had to go get him about twice before that with the leash but now he knows if I want him to come in, it is inevitable.  Just sharing some fun training experiences and I am sure you will have many to share with us as time goes on.  Congratulation s on you new addition to the family.

[dufus]

I feed Day-z IAMS large breed puppy, and will do until she is 2 years old.  I have been very careful about what she eats as i am paranoid about her hips, but it turns out that my big baby is a little on the thin side.  So, we are upping the food a little and all seems to be going well.

I wish i had foudn this site when Day-z was a baby, as sometimes she was really hard work and everyone thought i was crazy.  Now though she is the most beautiful and kind thing that i have ever encountered and i am indeed besotted.

[PennyK]

Thank you all so much for the advice.  Everyone who knows us thinks were crazy...at least I know I'm not alone!  LOL!

I posted some pics in another thread called "Introducing... .TEDDY!".  Isn't he the cutest??

Already he's proving to be a smart little guy.  Maybe its good timing on my part (or on his) but he has done his "duty" outside everytime (except overnight)!  But...I also think he's going to be one of the "I'll-come-when-I-want-to type pups".  Only time (and training) will tell!