Author Topic: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds  (Read 25601 times)

Offline bernerbuddy

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Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« on: February 26, 2006, 01:25:19 pm »
We had a Berner who was the most wonderful dog ever-until the histiocytosis hit at age 9 and a half (and we were lucky, as you all know).  This round we got a hybrid.  Her father is a full pedigree Berner and her mother is a German Shepherd Chow-Chow mix--she is gorgeous and wonderful, with the berner build and temperment.  Our idea is to breed her with another full Berner to make Bernese Mountain Chowpherds.  While AKC breeders may not engage in this kind of cross-breeding, their practices of strict breeding within shrinking genepools created the problems our large purebred dogs now have.  Breeding in some healthy outside genes actually just reproduces the natural way these dogs developed--but that is another, longer story.  The short one is, we are looking for the proud family of a proud father of the first litter of Bernese Mountain Chowpherds!
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 12:14:07 pm by bernerbuddy »

Offline greek4

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2006, 01:35:52 pm »
Are you breeding more for temperment or the look?  Do you have pictures?
Thanks,

Emily and 1 husband, 1 boy, 1 on the way, and 4 crazy dogs

Offline VdogLover

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2006, 03:02:01 pm »
Can you tell me...
How is breeding a dog of mixed breeds (both of which have as many of the same genetic health problems) make a healthier dog? Also why would one choose to instate temperaments, natural drives, and body structures that are nothing like BMDs?

Also you state your dog will bring in healthy genes? How do you know this?  Have the hips, elbows, heart, thyroid been OFA'd? Eyes cerf?

If you are worried about the state of BMDs in this country and want to add good quality genes why not look into importing some?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 03:05:26 pm by VdogLover »

GR8DAME

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2006, 12:26:47 am »
I do not have a Bernese Mountain Dog, although I think they are lovely, and have heard that their tempermant is wonderful as well. Having said that; I respectfully disagree with two statements in your post.


  While AKC breeders may not engage in this kind of cross-breeding, their practices of strict breeding within shrinking genepools created the problems our large purebred dogs now have.

The problems that our large breed dogs now have has been caused by irresponsible breeding practices within any genepool. People that have not done their homework or any of the screening as Vdoglover has very diplomatically pointed out. People that have had very nice, very pretty dogs that they have wanted to reproduce although they were not always a very good representitive of the breed standard, and did so indiscriminate ly.

Breeding in some healthy outside genes actually just reproduces the natural way these dogs developed--but that is another, longer story.

Aside from some very isolated breeds from places like Japan with the Kai or Shiba Inu, very little about todays breeds developed naturally. Most of them have been cross bred by human beings so that they rarely resemble the origanal breeds a hundred years ago. Actually, practices such as these change the original breeds, often into extinction.

While I have nothing against mixed breed dogs, I in fact have one that was a rescue, I find far too many mixed breeds on venues like "Petfinder" to even contemplate bringing more into the world. I respect your right to do as you please with your animals, but I hope you will not be too surprised or offended if I hope also that you reconsider.
Stella
 

Gypsy Jazmine

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2006, 01:27:46 am »
I don't think this is a good idea at all!!! :(...Sorry if I seem blunt but it's been a very trying day with my own mix, Rosie...I guess she'd be a Kuvador. ::)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 08:57:20 am by Gypsy Jazmine »

Offline nostaw

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2006, 04:35:14 am »
I'm sure they will be beautiful dogs, however I do feel I should express my opinion on your comment, "their practices of strict breeding within shrinking genepools created the problems our large purebred dogs now have." The problems were created a long time in the past, before the benefits of hip scoring, heart checks and a better understanding of genetics. You only have to look at breed standards in the USA or UK to realise that the emphasis is on creating good healthy dogs free from the problems of the past. It is the irresponsible for profit breeder and the uneducated buyer that perpetuate these problems. You cannot legislate against these people without effecting everyones freedom to choose.

This is why I welcome and contribute to web sites like this. To improve my understanding of our Big pawed companions.
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Offline Senghe

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2006, 05:19:13 pm »
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While AKC breeders may not engage in this kind of cross-breeding, their practices of strict breeding within shrinking genepools created the problems our large purebred dogs now have.

I've been biting my lip on this thread, but I can't hold back no longer.

Have you had your girl's hips scored and every other genetic test you should have done for all 3 breeds? Do you know the genetic good health of all of her grandparents and their ancestors? No person would allow you to use a good quality stud dog who's had all his genetic tests done. So far from doing the breed a favour, it will be YOU who will be breeding goodness knows what genetic problems into your Bernese Chowperds, YOU that will be causing the breed more problems in the future and you that will be breeding puppies that are likely to end up in rescue or even being put to sleep due to health problems.
AKC breeders are usually very particular about their stock and it's good health as it simply doesn't pay for them to breed substandard stock. A lot of the reason that purebred dogs seem to have more health problems than mongrels is that the small gene pool brings genes to the surface that have been there since dogs were wolves and with responsible breeders and careful breeding it can actually be bred out over a few generations. However, mongrels DO get problems, but because there is no written record of the ancestors, like there are with many pedigrees, there is no way of checking if their siblings or parents died of the same thing. Hybrid vigour is just a short sighted pipe dream.

Also most good AKC breeders have waiting lists for their puppies and many are spoken for before they are even born. Please do your research before you bring more unwanted puppies into the world.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 05:55:13 pm by k9kooky »

Offline Kermit

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2006, 05:57:21 pm »
Quote from Senghe:
"However, mongrels DO get problems, but because there is no written record of the ancestors, like there are with many pedigrees, there is no way of checking if their siblings or parents died of the same thing."

This is absolutely true. My friend has a beautiful and otherwise healthy shep/chow mix who has recently been diagnosed with severe hip displasia. My dog Nigel, a mixed breed, has 5 siblings who all have serious hip problems, one being confirmed as hip displasia.



Offline NoDogNow

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2006, 08:15:00 pm »
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AKC breeders are usually very particular about their stock and it's good health as it simply doesn't pay for them to breed substandard stock.

Maybe the ones you know personally.  My own observation is that is NOT at all the case generally.

The sad fact of the matter is that most BYB's AKC register. It's how they sucker people into paying show dog prices for BY puppies--that registration. 

And most BYB's couldn't care less about your puppy once they cash your check.  That's why we hate them, isn't it?

I'm not at all in favor of crossbreeding anything, unless you've got 5 or 10 generations of clear medical reports on all sides before you start your first F1 generation, so don't go thinking I think Bernese Chowperds a good idea--but at the same time, PLEASE don't pretend AKC cares about anything more than their registration fees. 

If AKC were remotely interested in promoting the proper breeding of healthy dogs, they'd require top level scores on the appropriate health tests for each separate breed to even REGISTER an animal, never mind show or breed it.

JUST DON'T START UP WITH THE CHOWPERDS, Bernerbuddy. PLEASE.

Before you even consider it one more second, you need to do a lot of hardcore research into developing breeds--the Shiloh Shepherd and the American Mastiff are two I've looked into for example--to see just how much really hard, serious, scientifc methodology goes into creating a "new" breed with anything CLOSE to a responsible approach.

Sorry if I'm a little short, but I'm having an exceptionally  :o bossy day today (GRRRRRRRR! I need to bite my boss!) 


Sheryl, Dogless and sad

Offline newflvr

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2006, 01:40:10 am »
Hmmmmm.  I have a feeling that this is not what Bernerbuddy was looking for.

Here's the thing.  I have purebred dogs because I am fairly sure of what I'm getting.  A Newf has a certain prescibed look, personality, and health expectations.  That's why I love them.  I'm pretty sure that's what I'm getting.  I think mixed breeds can be wonderful, but I'm at a stage in my life where I really don't want big surprises.  Mixed breeds can be a gamble. The people who breed a purebred, in the best case, are devoted to improving the breed and will stand behind them.  There are rescue associations devoted to caring for them if it's needed.

In what you are wanting to breed, you COULD get the aloofness of of the Chow, the agressiveness of a  shepard, and the size of a Berner with the overlay of the suseptablility of  a particularly nasty form of cancer....wors t case scenario, of course...but it could happen.  Why is what you are creating a better bet than what I could get at my local humane society???  With absolutely no better safety net than my local humane society??  I can see NO benefit other than you love your dog and would love to see the puppers.  Puppers are good if you have loving homes for all of them and are willing to take them back if necessary.  It seems to be quite a commitment to me!

I wish you all the best, but hope you rethink this plan.  I can see no benefit to anybody....exc ept maybe you because you love your dog so much.... 

Good luck!

Offline Senghe

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2006, 08:09:13 am »
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Maybe the ones you know personally.  My own observation is that is NOT at all the case generally.

The sad fact of the matter is that most BYB's AKC register. It's how they sucker people into paying show dog prices for BY puppies--that registration.

And most BYB's couldn't care less about your puppy once they cash your check.  That's why we hate them, isn't it?

Fair point in a lot of ways. But believe it or not, there are still some old fashioned people left out there who want to show and breed dogs and develop their own line over the years. They believe in the art of dog breeding, not raising a cash crop to pay for their next holiday. And the honest breeder's pups are going to be AKC registered unless they are a rare breed not recognised yet.

There does seem to be a misconception with the general public that a kennel club registration certificate of any kind is an automatic guarantee of a healthy well bred dog. But as they say, there's one born every minute and if you don't do your research it will proverbially bite you in the a*s.

I think the problem is that many BYB's are smooth talkers and unfortunately don't have BAD BREEDER written across their forehead so we can tell easily who's good and who's not. But a lot of people buy a dog with less care and checks than if they were buying an inanimate object like a washing machine. This is where the main problems is as if there was no market for dogs - registered or not - that had been poorly bred, they wouldn't breed them. But when lots of people have the attitude that their kid wants a chi because Paris Hilton has one and they want it yesterday, what do you expect?

Offline PupDaddy

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2006, 08:41:38 am »
I'm reminded of the movie "Die Hard 3" The scene early in the movie, where McClain (Bruce Willis) suddenly finds himself standing in Harlem, half naked, wearing a sign that expresses an unpopular opinion. Unfortuanly for Bernerbuddy, there will not be a Zeus (Samuel L. Jackson) character coming to his rescue.

Offline Anky

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2006, 09:50:29 am »
I'm beginning to lothe the AKC because people think that they stand for quality or are somehow involved in the producing of quality dogs.  They AREN'T.  THEY ARE A REGISTRATION BODY AND THAT IS ALL.  The AKC is a social security number for dogs.  You get the number you can participate in AKC events and your children can be registered AKC.  That's it.  If you have a complaint about a breeder, don't go to the AKC because as long as they pay their fees and don't falsify papers, the AKC doesnt' care.  Go to the breed club.  Sorry but I hit 4 different groups today before I got to this post and they ALL had posts about the AKC somehow being INVOLVED in dogs.  It's not. 
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GR8DAME

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2006, 10:29:51 am »
As I see it, the problem is not the AKC. The AKC is what it always has been, as Ang stated, a simple registry. Plug the correct (or not correct)numbers into the corosponding line in the application and poof!, you have a registered dog.It actually means very little, other than if you are going to show, in which case you have already done your homework and have the best representitive of the breed that you can find.
The problem is that the consumer is lazy, and expects the AKC to do the homework for them. Don't take the time or effort to research your breed, don't bother to check out the breeder, just go to Bubba, down the way. He always has puppies, so he MUST know what he is doing. And they have PAPERS!! Never mind that those papers mean about as much as a roll of Charmin. After alll, I want that pup NOW!! Senghi has a very sad and valid point in that most people put more care and concern into their next appliance than their next companion. You and I are not going to stop the BYB, the AKC is not going to stop the BYB (it is not what they are there for), educating the consumer WILL stop the BYB. If you take away the market you take away the incentive--profit.
That is why boards like this, that can address issues in a calm, non-confrontational manner are so important. They are our best bet for educating the largest number of people in a relatively short time and with greatest effect.
Just my Opinion, for what it is worth.
Stella
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 10:36:28 am by GR8DAME »

Offline NoDogNow

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2006, 05:21:28 pm »
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The AKC is what it always has been, as Ang stated, a simple registry.

Except (and I'm not trying to hurt any feelings, apologies right now, but I feel really passionately about this) THAT'S NOT HOW THE CURRENT AKC REGIME REPRESENTS THE ORGANIZATION to the general public! 

The AKC uses splashy televised "dog shows" with lots of judges with high sounding qualifications to promote the idea that AKC knows everything there is to know about dogs.  Most people learn 75% of what they know about pure bred dogs from the blurbs on these dog shows.  The AKC COULD use these shows to educate the public about the realities of owning dogs, breeding, breeders, etc., but instead focuses on running as many dogs past the camera as possible, spending less than a minute on each dog.  It's rare to hear or see even a mention of a breed club.  You talk about educating consumers as being the key to the whole pyramid--this is where is SHOULD be being done, but AKC won't do it.

Quote
The problem is that the consumer is lazy, and expects the AKC to do the homework for them.

AKC encourages this belief in every way possible.  The brand is used to promote all kinds of clinics about dog ownership, to promote training and various other competitive certifications like obedience and the CGC.  The public face of the AKC is that of a genial grandpa or grandma, out there trying to help everyone, including dogs, enjoy a happy life.

They even have other companies referencing "Find out more on the AKC website" in ads for products and various dog related programming.

In the meantime, behind the curtain, they take VAST amounts of money from evil and/or stupid people to register disastrously bred puppies that at least as often as not break the hearts and the wallets of the people who buy them. 

And the organization gets away with it because if anyone calls them out, "they're just the registry." 

AKC has leveraged the brand to turn itself into conventional wisdom's ultimate authority about dogs and their best welfare.  Having done that deliberately (and with $$ signs in their eyes) I think it's incumbent on the organization to actually start acting in the best interests of dogs and their welfare. 

GRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!

Yes, I'm on a huge tear. Ask me why!

Because I had to walk past the puppies in the window when I went to the mall just now for lunch--the escalators on the north side that I use to avoid that devil place are being worked on for the next six months. Every time I see those glass walls and those poor babies, it's all I can do not to bite every person in the store, especially the manager! 

AKC, my big fat butt. >:(  ::)  :'(

GGGRRRRRAAAAAH HHHHHHAAAAAAAA RRRRR!!

Just so mad.  I'll bite an AKC board member too, if I can find one.

Sheryl, Dogless and sad