Author Topic: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...  (Read 11684 times)

cricket36580

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I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« on: April 15, 2006, 01:25:06 am »
I talked to Bella's grand-breeder last night (for a very long time) and she fully approves of my choice of stud.  The stud is one of her get and a harl so I should end up with about 75% harl in the litter.  There's still a WHOLE bunch of stuff to do yet and I know this could come to a screeching halt but...for now I"m excited.  She's familiar with Bella's pedigree and knew what I should be looking for to produce strong, even tempered, beautiful pups.  So the work really begins now....sigh... .

« Last Edit: April 15, 2006, 02:09:31 am by Jacksmom »

Offline DixieSugarBear

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2006, 03:38:41 am »
Now for test test and more test.  Dixie's breeder is going to check out Suds for us at the Great Pyrenees Nationals next week. For now we have a short list of 4, one is even out of the country ::)I think I am making my hubby crazy with this. ;)

Lisa
Lisa, owned by the following:
Sugar Bear - Great Pyrenees 4.5 yr.
Dixie Darlin - Great Pyrenees 4 yr.
Penny Lane - Great Pyrenees 2.5 yr.
Beauman - Great Pyrenees 14 months
Izzy - Great Pyrenees 14 month
Rosie - Great Pyrenees (at the bridge)

cricket36580

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2006, 11:59:40 pm »
Poor Bella just doesn't know what she's in for.  I have a feeling we'll have to zonk her out to get her hips looked at.  No way is she going to put up with that.  But the rest is just blood so it should be easy enough. 

Glad to know you've now got a short list.  If you decide you are going to use the one out of country, I'll be glad to be your traveling companion...   ;D  Cause I think you might need some help and all...

Offline DixieSugarBear

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2006, 12:42:22 am »
Fed-x will get to do the travel for us.

Lisa
Lisa, owned by the following:
Sugar Bear - Great Pyrenees 4.5 yr.
Dixie Darlin - Great Pyrenees 4 yr.
Penny Lane - Great Pyrenees 2.5 yr.
Beauman - Great Pyrenees 14 months
Izzy - Great Pyrenees 14 month
Rosie - Great Pyrenees (at the bridge)

cricket36580

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2006, 04:25:08 am »
That is SO wrong on SOOOO many levels!   ;D  You just aren't any fun today! 

VolvoRottie

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2006, 09:59:38 am »
Hey there, been reading various threads here and there.

If your dog is 18 months old, has she been finished in the AKC or CKC [Canadian Kennel Club] ring yet?

In addition to hips being OFA'd, there are other equally important certifications for GDs [and my breed too]: Elbows, Heart, Eyes, Thyroid. In addition, Brucellosis testing - on both sire/dam. I know someone who just lost entire litter due to this incurable disease, and now the bitch will be put down too - years of showing, testing done, working titles - and the bitch was infected by a stud whom the owner/breeder didn't test AGAIN after the last bitch he serviced.

In the Mid-Atlantic, my region, we have a huge surplus of Great Danes in rescue and shelters. Many of them are inferior genetically, and come with a host of very expensive diseases for the new owners to "fix". Same with my breed by the way.

Which is why I think each potential new breeder had better have the most outstanding dog/bitch in the world, and not just in their own eyes. In the eyes of many judges and then she/he needs a pedigree full of other outstanding, special dogs.

Or else breeding is a disservice to everyone and all dogs.

[jumping in w/both feet]

VR

doggylover

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006, 10:22:06 am »
Hey there, been reading various threads here and there.

If your dog is 18 months old, has she been finished in the AKC or CKC [Canadian Kennel Club] ring yet?

In addition to hips being OFA'd, there are other equally important certifications for GDs [and my breed too]: Elbows, Heart, Eyes, Thyroid. In addition, Brucellosis testing - on both sire/dam. I know someone who just lost entire litter due to this incurable disease, and now the bitch will be put down too - years of showing, testing done, working titles - and the bitch was infected by a stud whom the owner/breeder didn't test AGAIN after the last bitch he serviced.

In the Mid-Atlantic, my region, we have a huge surplus of Great Danes in rescue and shelters. Many of them are inferior genetically, and come with a host of very expensive diseases for the new owners to "fix". Same with my breed by the way.

Which is why I think each potential new breeder had better have the most outstanding dog/bitch in the world, and not just in their own eyes. In the eyes of many judges and then she/he needs a pedigree full of other outstanding, special dogs.

Or else breeding is a disservice to everyone and all dogs.

[jumping in w/both feet]

VR
I agree 100% and welcome to the boards!  I know you will fit right in here!

VolvoRottie

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2006, 10:27:28 am »
Quote
I agree 100% and welcome to the boards!  I know you will fit right in here!

Thanks !!  ;D - I'm usually pretty opinionated about breeding - having done rescue and seeing what BYBs do and what damage even COE breeders do when they cut corners and use shortcuts.

Personally, there are way too many Great Danes right now - every week, many go to the shelters and get put to sleep. There are the same problems with my breeds, Rottweilers & Giant Schnauzers.

Here's what a terrific, caring and yes, outspoken breeder of Rotties wrote at our big breed discussion site [and she gives permission to cross post]:

Quote
Breeding to produce "nice pets."
"She loves her dogs, they have the best care."

"She loves the breed and treats us well."

"She breeds to have nice pets."

Classic statements that you'll see throughout the years on this board, often made by someone new to the board. This person is then "jumped" by many of the long-time board members, gets defensive and does not understand what everyone's problem is.

A little background

Every breed has a breed standard. The standard describes the ideal dog of that breed. The breed standard is what defines a dog, and what separates it from other breeds. Muscular black and tan dog. Am I talking about a Dobermann or a Rottweiler? Or perhaps a Miniature Pinscher? Or a German pinscher? A dog who is broad, well-muscled and with a blocky head. Rottweiler? Mastiff? Bullmastiff? Neopolitan mastiff? Pitbull?

If we change one little thing here, and one little thing there, the breed suddenly changes. Add a longer coat, a few white blazes and a softer temperament to a Rottweiler and guess what? It's not a Rottweiler, but a Bernese Mountain dog. But coat length, "nice personality" and a little white aren't that much of a change are they? Or are they?

Where do we draw the line at how many changes it takes to make a new breed? One (temperament) ? Two (working drive, size) ? What defines "just a little change?"

The Rottweiler standard for America can be found here: AKC Rottweiler standard. The International breed standard can be found here: FCI Standard.

The reason breeding for pets is a poor practice.

These breed standards describe the correct Rottweiler in both temperament and in body (also known as type). Read through the standards.

Many who breed for "nice pets" say that they have nice dogs, whom "everybody" loves and that they don't need to show them to prove that. They just want to breed nice dogs for "average" people. But the Rottweiler is NOT for the average person.

If one is not trying to prove that one's dogs meet the standard, one is not trying to breed true Rottweilers. To disregard the standard is to disrepect the breed and those who have developed it over the past 110 years. If you are not going to pay attention to the standard, and respect it, and strive to meet it, then you are breeding mutts.

The Rottweiler has a specified size range. Breeding for larger, "king size," "superior" or "Roman" Rottweilers is disregarding the standard. This is disrespectful to the breed.

The Rottweiler has a specified temperament (discussed here.) To breed for overly soft dogs "who love everyone" is to disregard the standard. The Rottweiler is NOT the breed for everyone (see this thread). To "dumb down" a working dog is to breed for something other than the Rottweiler. To soften the temperament is a dangerous game to play, often creating weak nerved dogs. Weak nerved dogs are much more prone to biting and that is the last thing this breed needs right now: scaredy-dogs out biting innocent people.

If a person does not breed to the standard, and prove that their dogs meet the standard, the person does not love "the breed." They simply love their own dogs and want to produce more of those (whatever they may be). Since such "breeders" change characteristic s (temperament, size, working drive) of the Rottweiler, they should decide what breed embodies their preferred characteristic s, and migrate to that breed.

The Rottweiler is NOT for everyone. If you are breeding to change characteristic s to make it "for everyone," you are not breeding for Rottweilers, but rather large black and tan dogs. Do not ruin our breed, change to something that suits you better. If you want a "nice dog who loves everyone," please get a Retreiver.

Homes for Rottweiler puppies should be carefully screened to be sure the prospective owners are capable of owning a Rottweiler. The home needs to "fit" with the breed, NOT the other way around.

Those who breed for nice pets are disregarding the standard, disrespecting the hard work of the original breeders and can not honestly claim to "love" the breed. You can not love something you disrespect.
______________ ____
Gretchen Caldwell
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 10:28:44 am by VolvoRottie »

kristi

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2006, 10:39:46 am »
I agree with you VolvoRottie - 100% regarding breeding...
I also agree with doggylover (Ronda) - you will fit in great here! ;)

Welcome aboard!
-k.

SA_horses

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2006, 11:27:23 am »
Welcome to BPO, VolvoRottie!

In the Mid-Atlantic, my region, we have a huge surplus of Great Danes in rescue and shelters. Many of them are inferior genetically, and come with a host of very expensive diseases for the new owners to "fix". Same with my breed by the way.

Which is why I think each potential new breeder had better have the most outstanding dog/bitch in the world, and not just in their own eyes. In the eyes of many judges and then she/he needs a pedigree full of other outstanding, special dogs.

Or else breeding is a disservice to everyone and all dogs

If only the "most outstanding dog/bitch in the world" were used, then we'd have a bunch of inbred dogs.  Popular stud syndrome anyone?  This is NOT a good idea.  It will only create more of those "genetically inferior" dogs.  Health checks are extremely important - I don't want to downplay that - but health will ALWAYS be an issue with inbred dogs.

JMO.

Sofia

VolvoRottie

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2006, 11:52:13 am »
Outstanding means they've been finished [AKC, CKC, or overseas if applicable] and they're specialed a bit or more than a bit.

I'm not sure your contentions about inbred and popular sire syndrome are mutually compatible. I understand both quite well. John Armstrong, PhD did a very fantastic study of the effects of inbreeding and popular sire problems and has posted nearly all his findings and research on the Internet [Google it]. SEVERE inbreeding can cause problems, for sure. Less direct inbreeding, aka, line-breeding is good many times.

Okay, editing to put his link up [he's passed on]:

http://www.canine-genetics.com/

Additionally, there are plenty of outstanding dogs in a given breed - in Rottweilers one has the option of using AmBred finished champions with outstanding get and who are themselves the product of outcrossing, OR you can use imports OR you can ship your bitch overseas to use one of the top sires in Germany or elsewhere in Europe. That provides more than ample opportunity to use dogs who're not closely related, nor so 'popular' as to produce issues.

My point is obvious then - don't breed bitches with obvious faults, be they cosmetic or structural. If you're starting your breeding career using an inferior bitch, you're wasting your time. Literally. And money. Every single top breeder, who has produced top get and done so as consistently as humanly possible and whom I know, has spent WAY more money on their first bitch than lesser breeders or BYBs. A top bitch in Rottweilers doesn't even leave Germany at this point - they're not sold off. For obvious reasons. Someone can buy a 2nd tier bitch, with nice bloodlines, but not a top conformation or working bitch. Top dogs on the other hand can be bought just about from any top German breeder.

No bitch with faults needs be bred. Spay her and find an outstanding bitch, then campaign her, put an obedience title on her [CD minimum] and then think about breeding her if she's really something special. Looking to fix too many holes in a bitches' conformation with the stud is really gambling and the odds are against that breeder. Most pups in a litter are pet quality anyway - using a lesser bitch will nearly guarantee that the pups are mediocre.

VR

« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 11:58:04 am by VolvoRottie »

Offline stryder

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2006, 02:03:12 pm »
V/R,
Well put in this tread.
THoM
Spay before the first heat NOT after the first litter.
Neuter before he runs away.

Offline brandon

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2006, 02:15:13 pm »
Welcome to BPO, VolvoRottie!

In the Mid-Atlantic, my region, we have a huge surplus of Great Danes in rescue and shelters. Many of them are inferior genetically, and come with a host of very expensive diseases for the new owners to "fix". Same with my breed by the way.

Which is why I think each potential new breeder had better have the most outstanding dog/bitch in the world, and not just in their own eyes. In the eyes of many judges and then she/he needs a pedigree full of other outstanding, special dogs.

Or else breeding is a disservice to everyone and all dogs

If only the "most outstanding dog/bitch in the world" were used, then we'd have a bunch of inbred dogs.  Popular stud syndrome anyone?  This is NOT a good idea.  It will only create more of those "genetically inferior" dogs.  Health checks are extremely important - I don't want to downplay that - but health will ALWAYS be an issue with inbred dogs.

JMO.

Sofia

Darbydale’s All Rise Pouchcove aka "Josh" comes to mind.  Wesminster Best of Show & he has hip dysplasia as is not OFA'd.  Even the top honors in the US don't mean a dog is necessarily the best representation sometimes. It's a crazy world out there.
“Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.”

Offline wolfsoul

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2006, 07:45:45 am »
Congrats! I recently found a stud for my bitch's second litter and I was SO happy (in fact I still AM happy!). It's great when you find a dog that gives you that "feeling."


Offline wolfsoul

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Re: I Have Found A Stud!!! Step 1 complete...
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2006, 08:51:37 am »
Most pups in a litter are pet quality anyway
This depends on the breed you are looking at. I am in Belgians. Almost any groenendael can be shown. Even one of my females that I have now, while not nearly conformational ly perfect (ugly in most people's terms), can still be shown and can still win. And of course, no dog is perfect -- every one has somehing that needs to be improved upon.

A Championship does not mean alot to me. What it tells me is that the dog will stand for a judge. Otherwise it doesn't say much. My foundation bitch doesn't have her Can CH yet. She DOES have 5 points and was the #19 Belgian in Canada last year from only one show, beating 25 dogs. But she doesn't have her CH. Does this mean she isn't a good specimen? Of course not, it just means she hasn't been shown enough.

I know a sheltie bitch that has been in atleast 30 shows, and now only needs one point to finish her CH. If you don't know she's been in 30 shows, you might take a look at her CH and think "must be a good dog." But how good is she when she's been shown like crazy the past two years and still does not have her CH? The fact that she HAS been shown that much will not be advertised -- only the shows she's won points with. And of course she has never taken anything over Best of Winners. But she will have her CH. Does this mean she's a good specimen? No, it means that occasionally there aren't many other female shelties entered and so she has a chance at taking best female which may give her a point or two.

Unless you know the breed well enough yourself and you look at the dog yourself, you can't look at a CH as an accurate measure of how well put together a dog is. I've met plenty of ugly dogs that have their CH. I've met plenty of breeders of ugly less common dogs that pin their dogs together in the same show so that not only will one of their dogs win, but that dog will also have enough points to finish their CH in one weekend.

Unless the dog has "BIS" or "BISS" ahead of their name -- the CH means nothing. And even then, the amount of grooming it takes to make that dog look better than it actually is is quite phenomonal. I know people that shave their dogs' cheeks to make them look thinner. People that shave cowlicks down the nose to make it appear as if there isn't one. People that dye the hair or chalk it. Oversize dogs that get shorter haircuts to make them appear smaller. Dogs with weight stuff in their ears to make them tip better. People who glue their dogs splayed toes together. Dogsc whose leg hair is brushed inwards so they don't appear easty-westy. Dogs whose head hair is trimmed so that their headplanes appear paralell..etc etc. And then you still have to look at health and temperment, so on and so forth.

Yes, a CH does not mean much. It's easier just knowing what your breed should look like and what it's faults are, so that you can determine it yourself. If the dog is too far away to tell, ask someone who has seen the dog. A good breeder should be willing to tell you the dog's faults, but the best person to ask is not the breeder. Also, a Can CH is different than an AM CH. An Am CH is much more difficult to require.